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Excell / BW legal small claims loss

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  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
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    Thank you to Ruurb and Johnersh, more than happy to be corrected and to have my own knowledge improved. Your comments are particularly encouraging as they show the OP that there are not as many obstacles to overcome as I had mentioned.
  • Ruurb
    Ruurb Posts: 39 Forumite
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    Apologies if I came across as brash.. wasn't my intention, just more of a correction!
  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,231 Forumite
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    Having assisted appellants in three previous cases which went to an appeal, I can perhaps shed more light on this than most.

    The first stage, is that the losing party must file an Appellant's Notice within 21 days of the original hearing (form N164). The filing fee for this is £120.

    If the original Judge didn't grant leave to appeal, the notice will be one which requests leave from the Circuit Judge, giving a brief summary of reasons why the appellant believes the District Judge made an error.

    If leave is granted, a Circuit Judge will issue directions for the next stage. This normally means a transcript of at least the Approved Judgment from the first hearing (or an agreed note of Judgment if unavailable), and the Appellant must also file and serve a Skeleton, and the Claimant, now called the Respondent, must do the same a couple of weeks later.

    At the hearing of the appeal, before a Circuit Judge (titled HHJ somebody), a litigant can represent themselves, or can engage the services of a solicitor or barrister. There is no right of audience for a lay rep, although the Judge can exercise discretion and allow one to advocate, as happened in the Excel v Smith case.

    Normal practice for parking companies when a case gets to the appeal stage, is to employ a barrister to advocate their case, so if a litigant is going to represent themselves and argue points of law, they had better be sure of their ground. Sadly, I don't think this case falls into that category.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    which court was this at ?

    +1 Has a lot of bearing as the Circuit Judge HHJ Somebody may have certain views e.g. Eastern Circuit of Beavis fame.
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    edited 23 August 2017 at 12:42PM
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    Redx wrote: »
    which court was this at ?

    and were you given leave to appeal it ?

    do you realise this could cost you a lot of money ? (if leave to appeal was granted)

    sounds like your defence was atrocious if you only put in a 2 line appeal

    I am happy to amend my quote above in light of the more experienced members comments above , to
    Redx wrote: »
    do you realise this could cost you a lot of money if you hire a lawyer like the PPC will ? (if leave to appeal was granted)

    we know this from other cases like UHW in Cardiff (NHS staff appeal) and the BEAVIS appeal etc (unless you managed to get it pro bono) , plus there may well be transcript costs etc as mentioned earlier , plus the appeal filing fee too

    definitely heed the legal advice given above , especially by member bargepole , but it all counts in any decisions
  • wi3347
    wi3347 Posts: 63 Forumite
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    Hello everyone,

    thank you for the cracking advice! its clear there is a LOT of knowledge on this forum and the input is much appreciated by everyone. I think all things considered I will take this one on the chin as I dont want to spend more money than I already have to if the advice of people that know a lot more about it than me think it will be a hard one to win.

    Seems i received some bad advice at the start. In a nutshell I was advised to submit a simple 2 line defence on the MCOL website stating that I was not offered a contract and so there was no breach of contract for me to answer to. Then if it ended up at a hearing that would be when I expanded my whole argument. This advice seems to me to be of good intent but inaccurate. The lack of detail in the initial online defence seems to have been my downfall. There were other people who were named drivers on the vehicles insurance at the time and I was away serving in the Army so was not the driver, by the time the letter before claim came through almost 5 years later it was impossible to find out who was driving. If i had stated in my defence I was away in the army then maybe it would of all been different. The judge on the day did seem against me, not just saying that because I lost it was just the vibe I got, for example I was stating 2 parts of my defence, i explained 1 and he tried to move onto the next part of my defence before i had finished and when i tried to finish my original point he look at me and said "your not answering my question?" and i said I apologise sir but your moving onto the next part of my defence before i have had chance to explain the previous part and he actually rolled his eyes! I swear i'm not making that up.

    All in all a sharp learning curve and i'm £290 down when i haven't actually done anything which is annoying!

    Again, thanks for the advice and I will continue to post in this forum as i have something else in the pipeline for your advice laddies and gents!

    Kind Regards
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    Which court was that nasty Judge at?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    Which court was that nasty Judge at?

    Would help others if you could tell us or at least the circuit.
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
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    Yes, you never send a "holding" or "skeleton" defence. That is poor advice to anyone.
    You have one shot at a good defence, so it needs to be used :)
  • wi3347
    wi3347 Posts: 63 Forumite
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    Hello everyone,

    sorry I haven't replied to the comments on this tread. Havent been ignoring you, im new to the site and wasnt subscribed to the thread so didnt know there was replies as I didnt get an email notification.

    The county court was Swansea and the judge was Collins. Not sure if he was a DJ or a DJJ but his name was definitely Collins. Someone id like to avoid in future if im ever in court over a parking issue again! He seemed unsure of the decisions he was making and it seemed his decision was made up from before I walked into the room. Im still scratching my head as to how he accepted a letter which had no address on it as "evidence" that excell have a contract with the land owners. The letter just said "at the site" I challenged this and said without an address on this letter it could be in relation to any car park that excell operate throughout the entire country. His response was "well i think its commons sense its in relation to this car park and I will accept this as evidence of the agreement." So apparently its not what you produce as evidence its whatever he decides is common sense.
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