Cyclist collision at mini round about

Norman_Castle · 19 October 2016 at 9:15AM

emmasaunders wrote: »

I understand traffic to the right has right of way but when a car to my right has stopped to give way to me it necessitates that I should have entered the round about, I imagine the cyclist didn't come to a stop at the give way sign and was just concentrating on beating traffic to his right

The car to your right apparently had a car to their right. You've said "they stopped to give way to you". Did they signal they were giving way to you, if so, how?

emmasaunders wrote: »

Its impossible I was going at any great speed, as the round about is just after a set of lights, I all but stopped and probably was going no more than 5mph in my opinnion. I understand your take, I did look Assess, decide and act, and it involved me seeing a stationary vehicle and decided to move out and not seing the cyclist with no lights probably thundering down the inside. How is it possible to see at a junction if a bike is behind a car?

So at a mini roundabout where distances are short you didn't stop despite the car to your right which you should be giving way to. You didn't see the cyclist because you didn't look properly.

NBLondon · 19 October 2016 at 9:38AM

I get the feeling this one could run and run....

Emma - you are mostly in the wrong. The car to your right is extremely unlikely to have stopped to give way to you - the only cases I can think are a) they were used to driving on the right and had a monetary lapse b) they had broken down at that very instant c) they recognised you. Did they actually signal that they were giving way? Even so, that does not give you universal right of way. Far more likely that they were giving way to a vehicle further round on their right that you couldn't see... in which case you may have the option to go if it is safe but you still have the responsibility to give way to vehicles already on the roundabout.

There could be a legal challenge based on which of you actually entered the roundabout first but without cctv or helmet/dash cam evidence, I doubt an insurance company would bother to fight it.

The cyclist appears to have contributed by a) not maximising their visibility when riding at dusk b) overtaking a stopped vehicle at a junction - i.e. they should also have given way to whoever was approaching from the right. Possibly they decided that as they were already moving at speed - they could cross the small mini-roundabout before that other road user reached them.

spadoosh · 19 October 2016 at 9:44AM

This seems to sum up your situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

The situation sounds quite unfortunate for you but ultimately you are to blaim. The cyclist didnt help themselves, mightve been taking unnecessary risks but youre not supposed to enter a round about unless youre certain it is clear for you. You might say you where certain it was but the fact is it wasnt.

Cyclists dont behave the same as drivers (sometimes illegaly sometime legally, sometimes for/against recommendations).

This is how simple it is to have an accident. People think its difficult but it really isnt. With driving ive learnt to think the worst possible outcome, you simply can not be too cautious when in control of a car.

I saw something similar a couple of months ago. Cyclist coming off roundabout in cycle lane car had come off the roundabout before hand and being a narrower road parked her car over the cycle lane. Traffic stopped, bike comes flying around the exit and slams into the side of the car. In that situation whilst the driver was very clearly in the wrong (stopping in a cycle lane) the cyclist was at fault for not adjusting his speed accordingly and failing to stop in time to hit the car. Incidentally my 'defensive' driving saved me from having him go in to me. I was behind the lady who got hit, kind of to prove a point made sure i was outside the bicycle lane, my car was at a ridiculous angle in relation to the road and im sure many thought i was a tool, right up to the cylist faceplanting the car.

I dont claim to be a superior driver but have learnt thigns from a couple of accidents (not with cyclists) and being a cyclist it certainly fine tunes your anticipation skills.

Mercdriver · 19 October 2016 at 11:37AM

I think the cyclist being unlit or in dark clothing is a bit of a defensive red herring. If it is dark enough for lights to be necessary for people to be seen, then picking out a cycle light can be difficult and reflective gear is of limited use when it is coming towards you unless there is light coming from the left. Whether the cycle is lit or not, you still have to look very carefully to make sure there is nothing that might overtake the car.

Entering the roundabout in this fashion is inherently risky. If you cannot be certain there is nothing there, then you shouldn't accept the invitation to pull out - you're trusting someone else's judgement, and you shouldn't do that in these circumstances IMHO. The car letting you out here isn't doing you any favours, in fact they are causing a hazard.

I'll ask you a question someone else asked you that you chose not to answer.

If this was your practical driving test, do you think the examiner would have passed you following this incident?

If the answer is no (which I suspect would be the answer) then the standard of your driving would be below the standard of a careful and competent driver. The other motorist's actions aren't a defence to yours. You took an action that caused an accident. You pulled out when you didn't have priority. In so doing you caused the cyclist to hit you. Slam dunk careless if the police did attend, which in my opinion they should have to be quite sure.

I was in a similar accident when I was dressed in dayglo yellow. Driver tried to take me to hospital himself I refused. I was obviously injured. The whiplash I suffered reared its head a day later - the cyclist could have similar symptoms, and decide to report it. You'll struggle to defend failure to report to the police otherwise.

If in doubt, report it. If the police tell you no need, get them to confirm it in writing.

forgotmyname · 19 October 2016 at 11:42AM

Above reminds me of another youtube video, Learner on a driving lesson where the car has front and rear cameras installed.

Parked at the side of the road for some time and a right thud from behind, A cyclist had his head down and pushing hard failed to look up and completely missed the parked vehicle and slammed into the back of it.

I used a scooter for work as the traffic got so bad, the amount of times i knocked on peoples windows to alert them to my presence was unreal.

Glad i had plenty of years experience on the road before getting one though. I knew exactly what to look for and avoid.

Not just bikes though, i was in the car on the M6 in the roadworks and had that awful feeling the lorry to my right was going to pull into me. And yep i was right. His indicator came on to move into me. Hand on the horm and edged as close to the vehicle in front in the hope he spotted me. Luckily that worked. I think the car behind was oblivious to his actions.

reeac · 19 October 2016 at 11:43AM

I have some sympathy with the OP as one could argue that the cyclist was overtaking at a road junction. I had a near miss at a T junction when a motorist on the main road stopped to let me out but a motorcyclist overtook him and skimmed across my bows. The motorcyclist was hidden on the far side of the stopped car. No amount of lights or hi viz clothing would have helped - there was just no line of sight.

almillar · 19 October 2016 at 2:14PM

OK, the basic version is - you should give way to all vehicles on the roundabout to your right. Not just cars. But you know that. You failed to give way to that vehicle.

There are lots of circumstances that worked against you in this situation, and I do agree with you that a good driver could have been caught out. We can throw a few excuses away though:
Cyclist wearing black - they can wear whatever they like.
No helmet - they don't have to wear these.
'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?
A car stopped for you - they're not permitted to direct traffic, and you're under no obligation to go just because they stop.

The only thing that would cover you would be if he was required, as below, to have his lights on. Otherwise some nutter bad cyclist and an over courteous driver has contributed to an accident that's your fault.

This was always my understanding:

The definition of "Night" is "Night (the hours of darkness) is defined as the period between half an hour after sunset and half an hour before sunrise)."

You've got half an hour after sunset to turn lights on.

one could argue that the cyclist was overtaking at a road junction

Nope (IMO) - bicycles and motorcycles can 'filter' which has a different set of (vague) rules around it.

Car_54 · 19 October 2016 at 2:40PM

almillar wrote: »

OK, the basic version is - you should give way to all vehicles on the roundabout to your right.

It isn't. The rule is "give priority to traffic approaching from your right ...". They don't have to be on the roundabout.

'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?

Speed limits do not apply to pedal cyclists (unless the roundabout was in a royal park).

Nope (IMO) - bicycles and motorcycles can 'filter' which has a different set of (vague) rules around it.

The rules on overtaking apply to all vehicles, 2-wheeled or 4.

See comments in bold.

Norman_Castle · 19 October 2016 at 4:45PM

almillar wrote: »

'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?
A car stopped for you - they're not permitted to direct traffic, and you're under no obligation to go just because they stop.

The op doesn't know how fast the cyclist was going because she didn't see him. She also thinks the car stopped to allow her to go although its not clear why she thought this and as she didn't stop herself she made a very quick decision on whether it was safe or not.

If I was at a small roundabout and had a cyclist alongside me its likely I would wait and let the cyclist go first. Is it possible thats why the other car was waiting?

Kim_kim · 19 October 2016 at 6:32PM

dacouch wrote: »

I have a feeling this will come as a shock to you.

A driver of a car that is not insured in anyway is legally entitled to claim from another vehicles insurance is the other other vehicle was at fault in the accident.

Why do you think different laws should apply to cyclists or pedestrians when an uninsured driver who legally should hold insurance can claim?

For someone to drive a car without insurance is an offence, to ride a bike on the public highway is not.

Cyclist collision at mini round about

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