So now I have a solar PV system how do I make the most of it???

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  • jackieblack
    jackieblack Posts: 10,317 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    the Sun's out.

    Not here it isn't :(
    2.22kWp Solar PV system installed Oct 2010, Fronius IG20 Inverter, south facing (-5 deg), 30 degree pitch, no shading
    Everything will be alright in the end so, if it’s not yet alright, it means it’s not yet the end
    MFW #4 OPs (offset): 2018 £866.89, 2019 £1322.33, 2020 £1337.07,
    2021 £1250.00, 2022 £1500.00, 2023 £1500
    Target for 2024 (offset) = £1200, YTD £460
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    edited 20 January 2012 at 1:02PM
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Not really, PV creates negative demand. PV generating, is similar to less households using high consumption items at any particular time ....
    Hi

    Whether pv creates negative demand or not depends on intermittent circumstances, yes there is averaging across the installed pv base, but Cardew's point actually stands regarding matching supply to demand, not that it makes much difference at the moment with the level of UK market penetration, however there are many articles available which describe the effect of vastly more installed capacity in Germany on their distribution network ... (eg ... http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=7313) .... this is exactly what Graham mentions when raising frequency matching and what Cardew has raised in the post you referenced.

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,766 Forumite
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    Z - PV will only ever reduce demand, or leave it unchanged. I'm pretty sure the National Grid would prefer adapting to that than to an increase in demand.

    Of course BigElectric plc might not be quite so keen! :D

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • don0301
    don0301 Posts: 442 Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    Whether pv creates negative demand or not depends on intermittent circumstances, yes there is averaging across the installed pv base, but Cardew's point actually stands regarding matching supply to demand, not that it makes much difference at the moment with the level of UK market penetration, however there are many articles available which describe the effect of vastly more installed capacity in Germany on their distribution network ... (eg ... http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=7313) .... this is exactly what Graham mentions when raising frequency matching and what Cardew has raised in the post you referenced.

    HTH
    Z

    that link is about pv power plants, not households......

    do pv power plants have negative demand?

    quote "Thus, small roof-mounted systems on single-family homes would not be required to undergo retrofitting."
  • grahamc2003
    grahamc2003 Posts: 1,771 Forumite
    edited 20 January 2012 at 1:52PM
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Hi

    Whether pv creates negative demand or not depends on intermittent circumstances, yes there is averaging across the installed pv base, but Cardew's point actually stands regarding matching supply to demand, not that it makes much difference at the moment with the level of UK market penetration, however there are many articles available which describe the effect of vastly more installed capacity in Germany on their distribution network ... (eg ... http://www.germanenergyblog.de/?p=7313) .... this is exactly what Graham mentions when raising frequency matching and what Cardew has raised in the post you referenced.

    HTH
    Z

    It's quite funny really - a perfectly predictable problem not originally catered for, requiring another 65-175 million euros to stick a plaster on.

    So just like the windmills being shut down when it's too windy, it looks like solar PV (at least the capacity subject to this) will be decreased or shut off if the frequency approaches limits, probably when it's sunnier than expected. No doubt there'll be some compensating subsidy for when the output is lowered, to compensate for the loss of fit.

    It's a sympton of insufficient reserve capacity btw, it would be interesting if the German grid has reached it's reserve limits (which is quite possible with all Germany's intermittent generation), in which case it will (ultimately) have to build more stations which can supply it if it keeps adding more solar and wind. Chopping solar power output isn't a very elegant solution, but probably the only option they have short term. If they had more reserve capacity, then they could simply schedule more, but that would likely mean more fossil fuel burnt to supply the reserve (so solar isn't co2 free, as many seem to think).

    btw (for others) - I didn't give solar the properties it has, I'm just the messenger.
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    edited 20 January 2012 at 4:12PM
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    don0301 wrote: »
    that link is about pv power plants, not households......

    do pv power plants have negative demand?

    quote "Thus, small roof-mounted systems on single-family homes would not be required to undergo retrofitting."
    Incorrect, the link is about pv .... however the solution for existing plant is to concentrate on systems over 10kWp, which is not uncommon as a roof mounted system in Germany. This approach limits the number of sites requiring attention to a mere 315000 (yes, three hundred and fifteen thousand installations over 10kWp .... get the scale ?) and therefore reduces the cost of the rectification ....

    As stated, that link was an example, there are many others .... anyway, I'd like to know what negative demand actually is when the washing machine, kettle, iron or dishwasher is on and a cloud or weather front passes over ? ... and, more importantly, what is the effect on grid frequency and voltage ?

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • don0301
    don0301 Posts: 442 Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    Incorrect, the link is about pv .... however the solution for existing plant is to concentrate on systems over 10kWp, which is not uncommon as a roof mounted system in Germany. This approach limits the number of sites requiring attention to a mere 315000 (yes, three hundred and fifteen thousand installations over 10kWp .... get the scale ?) and therefore reduces the cost of the rectification ....

    As stated, that link was an example, there are many others .... anyway, I like to know what negative demand actually is when the washing machine, kettle, iron or dishwasher is on and a cloud or weather front passes over ? ... and, more importantly, what is the effect on grid frequency and voltage ?

    HTH
    Z
    I'll just quote from YOUR link

    Title:

    Study Recommends Retrofitting of PV Power Plants to Solve 50.2 Hz Problem

    However, given today’s installed PV capacity (add> in Germany), if the rare case of an over frequency occurred on a sunny day with a high level of input from PV systems

    The recommendation to retrofit older PV systems that are connected to the low-voltage grid is meant as a precautionary measure for such

    Retrofitting is being recommended for all PV systems with a capacity of over 10 kWp that started operating after 1 September 2005

    It is recommended to be carried out between 2012 and 2014 on around 315,000 mid- to large-sized solar power systems that are connected to the low-voltage grid. Thus, small roof-mounted systems on single-family homes would not be required to undergo retrofitting.

    My understanding from the study is that the 50.2 Hz issue is connected to a technical requirement in the German standard DIN VDE V 0126-1-1 that was originally introduced in 2005/2006

    YOUR link remember.....
  • don0301
    don0301 Posts: 442 Forumite
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    grahamc2003 wrote: »
    It's quite funny really - a perfectly predictable problem not originally catered for, requiring another 65-175 million euros to stick a plaster on.

    So just like the windmills being shut down when it's too windy, it looks like solar PV (at least the capacity subject to this) will be decreased or shut off if the frequency approaches limits, probably when it's sunnier than expected. No doubt there'll be some compensating subsidy for when the output is lowered, to compensate for the loss of fit.

    It's a sympton of insufficient reserve capacity btw, it would be interesting if the German grid has reached it's reserve limits (which is quite possible with all Germany's intermittent generation), in which case it will (ultimately) have to build more stations which can supply it if it keeps adding more solar and wind. Chopping solar power output isn't a very elegant solution, but probably the only option they have short term. If they had more reserve capacity, then they could simply schedule more, but that would likely mean more fossil fuel burnt to supply the reserve (so solar isn't co2 free, as many seem to think).

    btw (for others) - I didn't give solar the properties it has, I'm just the messenger.

    And by the way, Z graham etc...

    wasn't it consensually agreed (not so long ago) to take this idiotic drivel to the Solar PV Feed In Tariffs - Good or Bad? thread instead of constantly polluting other threads with it....

    read post 1027,1042,1043 etc
  • The_Green_Hornet
    The_Green_Hornet Posts: 1,430 Forumite
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    Can I suggest that when someone feels that the thread is going off topic again, instead of responding with the same old pro- and anti- arguments they just politely ask the poster to re-post their comment on the Solar PV Feed In Tariffs - Good or Bad? thread.

    We are all adults here, right?
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,355 Forumite
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    edited 21 January 2012 at 2:41PM
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    don0301 wrote: »
    I'll just quote from YOUR link

    Title:

    Study Recommends Retrofitting of PV Power Plants to Solve 50.2 Hz Problem

    However, given today’s installed PV capacity (add> in Germany), if the rare case of an over frequency occurred on a sunny day with a high level of input from PV systems

    The recommendation to retrofit older PV systems that are connected to the low-voltage grid is meant as a precautionary measure for such

    Retrofitting is being recommended for all PV systems with a capacity of over 10 kWp that started operating after 1 September 2005

    It is recommended to be carried out between 2012 and 2014 on around 315,000 mid- to large-sized solar power systems that are connected to the low-voltage grid. Thus, small roof-mounted systems on single-family homes would not be required to undergo retrofitting.

    My understanding from the study is that the 50.2 Hz issue is connected to a technical requirement in the German standard DIN VDE V 0126-1-1 that was originally introduced in 2005/2006

    YOUR link remember.....
    Hello

    My link, your misunderstanding .... and it seems that you have misunderstood yet again ... according to the referenced article, please clarify what is recommended to happen to 315000 installed German systems of 10kWp and over which were installed after 2005, and what the reason was for selecting 10kWp as a cut-off threshold ? .... it would also be quite an education to us all if you could also research the average size of installed systems in Germany and relate this to current UK capacity averages .... a technical appraisal of the referenced disconnection standard and the UK equivalent would be extremely nice too ... then explain what the overall effect of the proposed changes would have on the German grid frequency ...

    It would be extremely interesting if you could enlighten both sides of the debate with your undoubtably extensive knowledge in this area, remember, I'm pro-pv (having had pv in various forms for years) and generally sit in the same camp as Martyn in the debate, however, the input of knowledgeable individuals who take an opposing view is welcomed and when they are correct, I recognise that they are correct and support the points which are correct .... I am confident that both sides of the ongoing debate would love to see some astounding logic based on original thought ....

    Thank you for providing so much constructive input so far, I for one look forward to many more hours of laughter at your expense if you continue down the current chosen path, even if you have some nice new shiny glazing on your roof ... welcome to the club :D:rotfl:

    HTH
    Z

    ps - What voltage is your OWL set at and what's the current grid supply voltage ? .... this is a question directly related to the title and spirit of the thread .....
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
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