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UKPC & county court business centre form received

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18911131418

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  • Bobby2k2
    Bobby2k2 Posts: 107 Forumite
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    edited 14 October 2016 at 1:13AM
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    UPDATE:

    Ok, so in relation to my hearing something happened that I was unexpected.. I was in court for approx 30 minutes until the judge adjourned again but this time to my benefit (I think)...

    I arrived slightly early and sat outside the court where the solicitor for UKPC was also seated. He greeted me and handed me a thick document that after closer inspection read:
    'Judgment - Cavendish Square Holding BV (appellant) v Tala El Makdessi (Respondent) / ParkingEye Limited (Respondent) v Beavis (Appellant).
    I asked if this was submited in their original bundle (which I knew it wasn't) and he said that it didn't need to because it was 'an authority' I acted like I knew what he was meant and carried on waiting to be called in.


    The judge began with a summary of what documents he had received thus far and in the process made the following remarks:

    He noted that the particulars of claim from the claimant were very brief
    He noted that I had sent at part 18 request and in their response they refused to produce a contract (he was not impressed)
    He also noted that I had submitted my defense & witness statement (but seemed to be ok with the fact I had addressed the points in the original MCOL defense as well as added some new ones)

    The judge then asked if the claimant responded to my defense to which they said they hadn't - This seemed to displease the judge.

    He then asked to see the contract to ensure that the claimant had the right to bring the claim..I have to say the solicitor tried his hardest to persuade the judge that the contract wasn't needed and that the witness statement from UKPC is enough. He sited 'commercial sensitivity' again but the judge wasn't having any of it and demanded that it be shown to both he and I. Reluctantly it was then produced (unredacted) with the terms and conditions and the judge and I started to read. Admittedly, I wasn't sure where to start and the judge could see that..the solicitor tried to direct us to a particular clause but judge declined his offer and said he wanted to go through it all.

    The judge asked him who the contract was with - it was the managing agent.
    The contract had no end date to which the judge asked how he could be sure if it was still place.
    He also asked who the landowner was and if it was in fact the managing agent - the solicitor said he didn't know to which I said I knew it wasn't as I had completed a land registry check that can be found in my bundle.

    Within their contract with the managing agent, there was a clause that said they could bring court proceedings to recover money but at their own expense. The solicitor referred to POFA 2012 and said that the managing agent would be the 'occupier' of the land and therefore this allows them to bring the claim in their own name. I argued that this related to a contract and argued how we would know if the managing agent had the authority to to this and that the only way we could be sure was to see evidence of the landowner giving authority to them to do so. The judge looked like he thought I had a point...

    The judge then had enough and said that he had a number of issues and there were a lot of points to go through and it could possibly be done in the two hour allocation. He said he had hoped to resolve the at least one descrepancies but could see that he couldn't (think he was refering to UKPC's right to bring the claim).

    Their side asked if we could at least go through some of the issues but the judge refused and said he wanted it done all at the same time and not as a 'piece meal'

    The judge then went on to say that it was wholly unaccepable that the claimant only produced the contract on the day of the hearing! He could see no reason why they couldnt have produced it sooner. He said it was not fair and obstructive to me as I was under represented (on my own) and could not possibly be expected to review it on the spot (I agree).


    He then gave the following directions

    1) The claimant has to serve a response to my defense together with a copy of the contract awarding parking services to the claimant as well as the terms and conditions that were applicable to the contract. He then granted permission for them to redact any commercially sensitive information (after asking if I was ok with that)

    2)The claimant has to serve a trial bundle and the hearing be relisted for an allocation of 1 whole day!

    The solicitor tried again and said he thought half a day would be sufficient but the judge said no, we need a full day.

    I have to say the judge seemed very thorough but fair. I think he wants to review the content in its entirety. The contract will be interesting indeed.

    Surely the additional 1 day hearing will cost UKPC even more money now?

    Please let me know your thoughts and any other ideas that I can use to be even more prepared for the new date.
  • DoaM
    DoaM Posts: 11,863 Forumite
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    Will you receive a copy of the trial bundle prior to the next hearing?

    Will you have an opportunity to comment on that bundle, especially if it includes new items not previously provided by the claimant?

    The Beavis judgment actually helps you, as your situation with UKPC is not remotely like that of Beavis with PE. :)
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    Suggest you write to UKPC and suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This means they swallow their costs and you swallow yours. Stops the farce (or legal process as UKPC like to call it)

    If you had taken my suggestion in #4 you'd be quids in now.
  • Bobby2k2
    Bobby2k2 Posts: 107 Forumite
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    Suggest you write to UKPC and suggest a discontinuance on the basis of a "drop hands" offer.

    This means they swallow their costs and you swallow yours. Stops the farce (or legal process as UKPC like to call it)

    Thanks for the suggestion.. If they decline can they bring it up in court and weaken my position? If they can't, then strategically, I may wait until they reply to my defense and send over the contract - At least that way it'll cost them more money because of addItional work they have to do AND we can all finally see a version of one of their contracts.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    If they decline can they bring it up in court and weaken my position?
    Not if you head it 'without prejudice save as to costs' - stops it being used in court against you.

    IamEmanresu knows his stuff, sounds like a good way to force their hand & end it.
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  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,231 Forumite
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    A whole day for a parking charge case? That's insane, I've never known one to be listed for more than 3 hours.

    What on earth is the Judge expecting to do, go through the entire history of the development of the law of contract?

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,094 Community Admin
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    There may be sanity in the insanity. A not so subtle way of saying don't come back. Try for the Notice.
  • Bobby2k2
    Bobby2k2 Posts: 107 Forumite
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    Will you receive a copy of the trial bundle prior to the next hearing?

    Yes I believe so. However, now considering the suggesting the notice.
  • TDA
    TDA Posts: 268 Forumite
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    There may be sanity in the insanity. A not so subtle way of saying don't come back. Try for the Notice.

    Seems unlikely to me. If the judge wanted to do that he could simply have kicked the case out on the basis that it hadn't been proved on balance that the claimant had contractual authority to operate on the land.

    Adjournment means he thinks there is still a case to be heard.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,248 Forumite
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    I'm not sure if has been mentioned here before, but you are advised to tie your court bundle with something prominent like red tape/ribbon, and if offered anything before you enter the courtroom to just leave it behind.

    I'm not sure if it is to your advantage if you were to mention to the judge that you have been offered documents just before entering
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