Got caught doing the old sitting in FC on overcrowded train trick

Rudess wrote: »

Just been on a train this evening from Cambridge to London with few colleagues from work. A minute after the train started journey 2 ticket officers jumped on us as we were sitting in 'first' class . We had no idea this is first class as doors were open and there was no difference in the seats whatsoever. We tried to explain them that this is a misunderstanding, but they of course didn't want to listen because they make commission out of these, so we basically got each one £70.40 penalty although the return ticket cost us £33, Unbelievable. They gave me a receipt but didn't take any of my details (name,address), just my original ticket.

Honestly, I was thinking to call my bank to make a chargeback, as I couldn't know I'm in first class section, as doors were open and it's really cruel thing to do to us as I honestly wasn't planning to abuse the 'first' class section. I know that appeal wouldn't work because it's not in their interest to cancel penalty fines.

Your advise?

Quentin wrote: »

If you had bought first class tickets in the first place you would have looked to see you were sitting in the correct class of seat, and the same argument will go for holding standard class tickets.

Your bank cannot make a chargeback as you gave your bank details over of your own freewill, and there was no contract breach by the "merchant".

You "enjoyed" first class, which is what you paid for - or are you saying you paid up then moved to standard class?

timbo58 wrote: »

The problem is:
a) the 1st class fare payers have no doubt complained vociferously to the ToC about just this sort of 'fare evasion', there are lots of times where those who've actually paid the 1st class fare can't then get a seat as STD ticketholders are using the seats IME.

b) when someone is caught without having paid the fare* then clearly the ticket inspector has to do something about this, they can't just let people off.
It has nothing to do with the fact you offered to leave and had only been there for 15 seconds: had the TI not challenged you then it's fair to argue you would not have left.

On busier trains I would fully expect the ticketing staff to target just this sort of seat blocking and fare evasion, I am only surprised you see it as such a shock.

*a passenger with a std ticket occupying first class accom has not paid the fare, not even part of it, this is a well known test case dating to 1948 IIRC?

In theory anyone even standing in that part of a train designated as 1st class (even the vestibules) is liable to be PF'd (not a fine btw only courts can issue fines) or asked to leave, although this is often ignored by staff as impractical.

A ticket is evidence of a contract to get you from A to B, it is not a contract the guarantees you even getting onto the train let alone to guarantee a seat.
If you would prefer to be guaranteed a seat consider the scenario:

How many trains do you get on regularly that have a seat 'free' for your ticket type (ie not 1st class or reserved)? are you prepared to wait for several full trains to have passed before you can get onto one?

Remember the tracks are at capacity, the rolling stock also for the peak periods which become ever longer, trains cannot be added to without infrastructure (platform length etc etc) being taken into account at the very least.

This is the problem and is ironically why fares are so much higher at peak (a crude method of damping down demand).

When compulsory seatbelts on trains were mooted a few years ago it was quickly realised that this would mean compulsory reservations, this destroys one of the best aspects of rail travel: the ability to turn up & go without pre planning & with a vast amount of flexibility.

What about abroad: I'm sure the trains are much better there?

The French fine you for not reserving in the peak hours on some trains (10 euro?) so not only do you stand, you pay extra for that too!
The Japanese employ staff to shove you bodily onto peak trains regardless of designed capacity.

A large 8 car conventional HST years ago had a capacity of 512 seats, there are 2 seats which could realistically be absolutely guaranteed on that train for particular persons: both were/are in the leading drivers compartment.

It's not that I or anyone else on this thread are unsympathetic to your plight, however it's a case of 'realism' there's no point in us all saying 'appeal' 'you're absolutely right' when this problem occurs daily and opens a can of worms every time.

Humphrey10 wrote: »

Every thameslink FCC train I've been on has had very obvious First Class areas - you can't miss the signage. I assume the great northern ones are branded in a similar way. If they are, then I find it had to believe that you were in a group and none of you saw the signs.