Withdrawal using stolen card but Abbey won't refund: any advice?

sah10406 · 13 May 2005 at 1:22PM

I am advising someone who is disputing an unauthorised withdrawal from her Abbey current account. Can anyone suggest any good arguments for challenging Abbey's descision? Off the record advice from bank employees would be especially helpful.

The basics are: my client had both her debit card and driving licence stolen by a pickpocket. She did not report the card stolen for over 24 hours, by which time there had been some small spends in shops (£70) and over the counter withdrawals from two Abbey branches of £500 and £1500, supported by the driving licence. Abbey are not refunding those withdrawals because the card theft had not yet been reported, and the signature matched her driving licence signature.

Can she dispute this? I feel that Abbey should not have allowed any £1500 cash withdrawal by anyone (not to mention at a branch the account holder had never used). The photo ID would not have matched, and the account holder had previously been refused a one-off £1000 cash withdrawal over the counter at her regular branch. The withdrawals were completely out of character with her pattern of withdrawals, and effectively used up her whole balance and overdraft facility.

The person is question is a medical student close to qualifying, and this is a huge setback for her. Any advice on how and whether it is worth challenging Abbey's decision would be gratefully received.

Thanks folks

grumbler · 13 May 2005 at 2:01PM

Any chance of using CCTV footage to reveal distinct discrepancy between your client and the person using her photo ID?

sah10406 · 13 May 2005 at 2:12PM

Probably not. They are focusing on the fact that they paid out the money in good faith, as the card had not been reported stolen. But I would have thought they also have a duty to double-check photo ID and to question such a large withdrawal from a low-balance account. And again, the real account holder had been previously refused a £1000 withdrawal!

Milky_Mocha · 13 May 2005 at 3:19PM

I think she should report this incident to the police. Then the bank might take it more seriously. They might also be compelled to examine their CCTV footage.

I don't think banks take necessary precautions when doing a lot of things these days. Apparently if someone steals your cheque book and issues a cheque in any scraggly signature the cheque is honoured without even checking and is only checked / refunded if the account holder complains.

Same with post-dated cheques - a date on a cheque hardly means anything anymore.

grumbler · 13 May 2005 at 5:24PM

sah10406 wrote:

...They are focusing on the fact that they paid out the money in good faith, as the card had not been reported stolen. But I would have thought they also have a duty to double-check photo ID and to question such a large withdrawal from a low-balance account. And again, the real account holder had been previously refused a £1000 withdrawal!

The only purpose of asking photo ID is to check ID of the person by comparing his face with the photo. If they failed to do this it is their fault!

She was previously refused a £1000 withdrawl - on what grounds? Is there anything in T&C? Or she did not have photo ID? Otherwise this refusal was incorrect and could be subject of complain but not the argument for current case. *I think*

amandathepanda · 13 May 2005 at 5:54PM

At my Bank to combat fraud any withdrawal of over £1000 requires passport or driving licence no argument. If you do not produce one of these as well as your card you will not be allowed to withdraw. If the Abbey asked for a driving licence (was it a photo driving licence?) but then clearly did not identify the customer, then they were not following proper procedure. I would advise you to report it to the police, advise Abbey of this, and then tell them that you are going to the Banking Ombudsmen. They are required by law to give you this leaflet that will tell you how to take matters forward.

jonesMUFCforever · 13 May 2005 at 7:21PM

I would agree with what others have said
1. Report it to the police and get a crime reference number.
2. Telephone the bank's customer services (or complaints section to you and me) and state the facts.
3. If 1 and 2 don't work mention that you want to take it to banking ombudsman and you want a letter of deadlock stating the bank's position and why it is refusing the claim. By this time the complaint will have gone to someone quite senior in the bank and hopefully they will see some sense.
4. If all fails sue them in the small claims court for theft! It will only cost you £30 to process your application.

Finally,the bank should only pay out to the rightful owner of the money. It does not matter that you did not report the loss of the card straightaway (how could you if you didn't know it was lost?).
Eric

JanCee · 13 May 2005 at 9:06PM

[QUOTE=Finally,the bank should only pay out to the rightful owner of the money. It does not matter that you did not report the loss of the card straightaway (how could you if you didn't know it was lost?).
Eric[/QUOTE]

I agree with the above post. The onus is on the bank to prove the ID of the person making the withdrawal and as the ID was stolen then it is the bank who must stand the loss. Have you asked to see the signed withdrawal slips? Don't let them fob you off, get the police involved and be persistant.

bargains83 · 13 May 2005 at 9:37PM

There is something ringing alarmingly dodgy about this incident, now please don't get me wrong im not accusing anyone of lying. However, if you wish to withdraw more than £500 over the counter at abbey you usually have to 'order' the money 24 - 48 hours in advance as for security reasons they only carry enough money on the premesies to get them through day and not enough to allow substantial withdrawls.

So I do find it difficult to believe that a complete stranger has managed to get away with this let alone a legitimate customer.

As many have already suggested, inform the police and take it from there. CCTV should be able to highlight that it wasn't your friend at the counter when the withdrawls were made and if this is the case then the bank will have to refund the money and no doubt the cashier who payed the thief will be sacked for gros negligence

Paul_Varjak · 13 May 2005 at 10:04PM

sah10406:

You initial post raises a few queries:

1. Has theft been reported to Police?
2. You say that signatures match - have you actually seen the signatures?
3. Was theft reported to Abbey immediately it was noticed?
4. Did the thief know the PIN number? If so, how?
5. How do you know that transactions in Abbey were supported by the Driving Licence?

If transactions took place with the card before the theft was reported (as appears to be the case) it seems that Abbey should only make your friend liable to the first £50. However, that is subject to certain provisos though!

Perhaps Abbey are saying your friend did not exhibit due care? If so, and if Abbey accepted a Photo ID card as proof of ID, then they did not exhibit due care either, especially if the photos differed!

Here is a link for the T&Cs on Abbey card theft:

Click Here **Link Edited by Board Guide to make it shorter**

In my opinion there are some errors in the T&Cs. If you wish to know what I think the errors are, please PM me.

davidcampbell · 13 May 2005 at 10:09PM

as suggested inform police and escalate through our fraud channels. with police involvement will be easier to resolve (shouldnt be necessary i know but seems it might need to be)

bargains .....

There is something ringing alarmingly dodgy about this incident, now please don't get me wrong im not accusing anyone of lying. However, if you wish to withdraw more than £500 over the counter at abbey you usually have to 'order' the money 24 - 48 hours in advance as for security reasons they only carry enough money on the premesies to get them through day and not enough to allow substantial withdrawls.

.... true to an extent but could have had some large deposits through out the day giving them a bigger float. while notice is asked for, not always necessary.

Same with post-dated cheques - a date on a cheque hardly means anything anymore.

milkymocha (i looooove mocha

) .... postdated cheques dont mean anything you are quite right. t and c's clearly state not to use a cheq unless you have cleared and available funds - ready for it to be cashed.

even if a cashier sees a date on a cheq which is postdated there is no obligation to not accept it.

Withdrawal using stolen card but Abbey won't refund: any advice?

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