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PCN appeal failure. Can I appeal again?
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Azimuth99
Posts: 33 Forumite
Hello,
Back on the 14th January 2010, I got my first ever parking ticket. I had strayed in to a taxi only zone, that abutted the disabled parking area which I thought I was parking in. The taxi area was empty. I displayed my blue badge as usual - and when I returned 20 minutes later, I got a ticket with Contravention Code 23.
I appealed via e-mail, citing my blue badge number (thinking they had missed it), unclear markings and my inability to pay £70 (£35 if paid early) as I'm unemployed, receive no benefits, and care for my elderly parents. Basically, compassion grounds.
My appeal was rejected today (via written letter) - with procedural quotes from council parking regs. They said I should have parked on double yellows, or council parking (far away) as it's free for disabled (which seems to completely ignore the fact that most disabled parkers go for 'close proximity'. Being free isn't much use if you have trouble walking a distance).
Anyway, what I cannot work out is whether I can appeal again? The council parking guide says that if I don't pay, I get an NtO, and have to represent infront of the Council or independant adjudictor. Is this basically a second tier appeal i.e. the last stop?
Any insights warmly welcomed...
Azimuth99
Back on the 14th January 2010, I got my first ever parking ticket. I had strayed in to a taxi only zone, that abutted the disabled parking area which I thought I was parking in. The taxi area was empty. I displayed my blue badge as usual - and when I returned 20 minutes later, I got a ticket with Contravention Code 23.
I appealed via e-mail, citing my blue badge number (thinking they had missed it), unclear markings and my inability to pay £70 (£35 if paid early) as I'm unemployed, receive no benefits, and care for my elderly parents. Basically, compassion grounds.
My appeal was rejected today (via written letter) - with procedural quotes from council parking regs. They said I should have parked on double yellows, or council parking (far away) as it's free for disabled (which seems to completely ignore the fact that most disabled parkers go for 'close proximity'. Being free isn't much use if you have trouble walking a distance).
Anyway, what I cannot work out is whether I can appeal again? The council parking guide says that if I don't pay, I get an NtO, and have to represent infront of the Council or independant adjudictor. Is this basically a second tier appeal i.e. the last stop?
Any insights warmly welcomed...
Azimuth99
0
Comments
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What have you actually received? Is it a pcn?If so they have rejected your informal appeal, the next bit of paper you'll get is a Notice To Owner. Yes you can appeal again as the first one is classed as informal.
Photo/scan both sides of all you have had, removing personal details, leave dates. host on tinypic and put the url in a post including the img bits.
Take pics of signs and lines as they are often at fault.
When they are on here someone should be able to help you or suggest what next to do.I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.0 -
Thanks for the reply peter_the_piper.
Images at links below.
PCN Front at http://i49.tinypic.com/aoror9.jpg
PCN Back at http://i45.tinypic.com/6ixvmw.jpg
Letter Page 1 at http://i50.tinypic.com/359zv9l.jpg
Letter Page 2 at http://i47.tinypic.com/t687qc.jpg
Any help welcome. Thanks in advance...
Azimuth990 -
Any pics of the signs and lines would greatly assist.I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.0
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Yes, you will need to show us pics of the taxi bay and adjacent disabled bay lines, and all the signs and their proximity to where you parked. Can you get daytime pics of the area, or find the exact place on Google Street View?
I am not an expert but want to bump your thread and try to help by putting up some thoughts for discussion. So I will say that I noticed that the back of the PCN has a heading 'take action within 14 days or risk paying more' and lower down on the back it says 'if you challenge this PCN within 14 days'.
I think there may be a chance this wording is prejudicial as it doesn't seem to clearly communicate how long you have to appeal. Within 14 days of what? If they mean within 14 days of the date of the PCN then I think it should use other wording similar to the 28 day wording used on the front...otherwise it can suggest you have an extra day to appeal which I think is incorrect.
Many tickets are successfully appealed on wording errors alone so bear with me, but as I said I am not an expert. I could be wrong, so I will wait to see your pics as well as any comments from others with more experience, as Council PCN wording is a bit complex for me.
Oh, and to answer your initial question, you are in a 3 stage appeal process, basically:
- Informal appeal after receiving a PCN.
- Formal appeal after receiving a Notice to Owner.
- Finally, the right to take the matter to an independent adjudicator (not Court or anything, and the most you may have to pay if you lose is the full PCN amount I believe).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thank you everyone.
I'm working on the pictures. Going as fast as I can.
Pictures should be on-line tomorrow (Saturday) - with luck!
******* UPDATE *********
Pitville Road on Goole Maps
Google Maps http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Pittville+St,+Cheltenham,+Gloucestershire+GL52,+United+Kingdom&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.609468,135.263672&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=FYrzFwMdrlvg_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Pittville+St,+Cheltenham,+Gloucestershire+GL52,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.901119,-2.073583&spn=0.002578,0.008256&z=18
Image 1 - Where I was parked. Red 4x4 in same place 'ish'. I was further back. 4x4 has disabled badge. In taxi zone. No ticket given. Taxi zone empty as usual.
http://i46.tinypic.com/wag7eg.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/kajqz6.jpg
Image 2. Upright sign. Did not see this.
http://i50.tinypic.com/34riwyb.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/sw332x.jpg
Image 2.5. Sign at head of 'Taxi' zone.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2mhwyzp.jpg
Image 3. Road markings - which I went by, and got wrong. Note HUGE disabled word, and tiny taxi word.
http://i47.tinypic.com/4rrn29.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/33lfq6f.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/dtt6p.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/28bbsrc.jpg
Image 4. Taxi bay. Empty as usual.
http://i46.tinypic.com/jr8qv4.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/vfeds9.jpg
Image 5. White van without blue badge parked in disabled zone. No ticket given. Apparently, this is always happening (according to locals).
http://i49.tinypic.com/ibe4p5.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/zoby4j.jpg
Image 6. Elderly home volunteer bus. Half in / half out. No ticket given. Very similar to how I parked.
http://i49.tinypic.com/10ohcnp.jpg
Azimuth990 -
All pictures up.
Please don't ask for any more - I'm exhausted. Phew!
BTW Google Maps sat image is very old. Shows the old Loading Zone rather than the more recent Taxi zone. Apparently, the taxi drivers fiscal case won out with the council. Either way, then or now, the zone is still full of people dropping off, parking, disabled or otherwise. Taxis are a minority apparently.
Azimuth990 -
Only had a quick look but I believe its not a permitted variant to have "taxi" inside the box, someone else parks over it and you don't know its wrong.
Only one point so far but others will add.I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.0 -
peter_the_piper wrote: »Only had a quick look but I believe its not a permitted variant to have "taxi" inside the box, someone else parks over it and you don't know its wrong.
Only one point so far but others will add.0 -
Thanks everyone. This thread is paralled on PePiPoo
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=48178
Although I have been warned that councils 'lurk' on PePiPoo. You have been warned. I have little choice in the matter, but to soldier on.
Thank you peter_the_piper and Scottishsapper
If you look at
http://i47.tinypic.com/sw332x.jpg
there is a vertical line, which I didn't see at all. Perhaps it was under another car behind. I cannot remember.
In a seperate issue, PePiPoo users are saying the Taxi Rank signage is unlawful. Any thoughts? :huh:
Azimuth990 -
Pepipoo are the experts. :T
If someone has a valid appeal and has been given the confidence by pepipoo to take the matter all the way to the adjudicator then it won't help the Council to lurk anyway.
If pepipoo say it's a non-compliant sign (and non-compliant markings on the road too) they'll be right IMHO, and they will give you links to the statutory info to prove your case. If they say you've got a good case then I would believe them and take your appeal all the way to the adjudicator, personally.
Going by other cases I have read on pepipoo, I would expect the Council will probably reject your early appeals and maybe your formal appeal too, it seems to be the game they play. Be ready for this and just post back on pepipoo for advice each time. My money would be on the Council not contesting this at adjudicator stage.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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