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[MSE Lawrence]

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's 'Mental Health and Debt: New guide to come' blog. Please read the blog first, and then click reply to discuss.

Read Martin's 'Mental Health and Debt: New guide to come' Blog

[dmg24]

I once broached a TV programme on it but the reply from all the execs I spoke to was “It’d only be interesting to those with problems; most people will switch off”.

Crazy. They will quite happily broadcast a programme on Michael Barrymore and the Stuart Lovell (sp?) case, which surely interests very few (if anyone), yet they will not cover a subject which applies to 25% of the population (plus family, friends, MH professionals etc).

[Fran]

A difficult one, in that if people's mental health problems involve depression then they are unlikely to have the mental energy to read such a guide when they actually need it..... but how would you catch those with "potential" depression or in between depressive episodes? (Label it Barrymore or Osbourne or something?!)

[dmg24]

Originally Posted by Fran

A difficult one, in that if people's mental health problems involve depression then they are unlikely to have the mental energy to read such a guide when they actually need it..... but how would you catch those with "potential" depression or in between depressive episodes? (Label it Barrymore or Osbourne or something?!)

Very true. But then that seems to me the problem with the whole mental health system, how to catch people who either are ill or are at risk of becoming ill.

I am just coming out of a depressive episode (starting to feel vaguely human again!), that lasted around six months. Despite presenting myself at the doctors with endless minor ailments, I did not have the nerve to say 'I am ill again', and despite years of MH illness all over my records, the doctor never asked.

The only financial advice I had over the period was people reminding me that I needed to snap out of it so I could pay some bills.

[Fran]

Originally Posted by dmg24

Very true. But then that seems to me the problem with the whole mental health system, how to catch people who either are ill or are at risk of becoming ill.

I am convinced, though by its nature it's unprovable, that there are hundreds of people who live on their own completely isolated with mental health problems. They aren't in the frame of mind to get help and how could you possibly get help to them, it seems like a catch 22 thing to me. I suppose websites and TV, but then would you have taken any notice/taken it in when having a depressive episode?

[whitty999]

I really urgently need to discuss this but not just right now............I will soon
Please Martin fight hard for this i know..........
Im not up to it yet but i do need to post here soon about how this is affecting me deeply

[MSE Martin]

Hi folks,

Some interesting points above - let me address them briefly.

Who's the guide for?

I've amended the blog slightly as I forgot to include that it's also for families and carers of the person with health issues.
Yet even without that, there are many levels of mental health and capacity issues. Of course for someone without the requisite capacity the guide is irrelevant.

Yet for those with mental health issues; it can be used both in better periods to plan and protect during worse times; and even in worse periods to provide a framework of action - something often useful when people are suffering depression.

Ultimately it's something I'm passionate about - and even if only a few people are actually in a position to gain from it - jobs a good'un (and don't worry I know the above wasn't criticism )

Martin

[Iguana]

How do you encourage the families and carers to access this kind of service when they are bogged down with caring for somone which can occupy their whole life?

I would add this is not a critism! but I do feel it is a valid point!

[newleaf]

I'd like to point out that depression is not the only issue. People with Bipolar Disorder who become elated in mood can get into terrific problems spending massive amounts of money which they can't hope to pay back. Unfortunately, when elated, people can become grandiose and convinced they are very rich, or that they have a foolproof method of making a fortune. Sadly, much damage is already done by the time the person is ready to accept treatment - or worse still, has become such a risk that they are detained in hospital under the mental health act. As a psychiatric nurse, I have seen this many times. Often the responsible medical officer can help by writing a letter to creditors to explain the situation, and debt can sometimes be written off but obviously this affects the credit record and requires the patient to consent and to request this intervention. Then, the flip side of Bipolar Disorder is depression - often made all the more painful by rash spending whilst elated. The feelings of guilt and shame are often exaggerated, unbearable and can lead to suicidal behaviour.
A very interesting topic Martin, and one I feel is worthy of public debate. Good luck with it.

[MSE Martin]

Hi newleaf. Of course depression isn't the only issue; that was an aside. We will try and address all mental health issues including the big ones - bipolar, depression, anxiety, addiction issues and more.

I've got some of the UK's leading experts on mental health practical issues working to write this; I'll be helping myself.

On to the question, "How do you encourage the families and carers to access this kind of service when they are bogged down with caring for somone which can occupy their whole life?"

This is a guide - for people who want help to read and use to make their life easier. It isn't imposed on anyone.

This is a massive issue that needs addressing; sadly I'm not Gordon Brown, I have limited resources on an issue I feel passionate about - this is a start. And we need to work towards it.

The number of mental health professional carers who tell me they use the site to help their clients who are in terrible debt is huge; I want to target them as well.

We need to work together on this.

Martin

[Errata]

Martin, I'm very pleased to see that you will be collaborating with MIND.

The guide you propose would be of immense help to those who work with people with mental health problems. I refer to them as problems rather than issues because a problem is something that people don't want/struggle with and the word issue is used by many people but seems too unspecific.

Those who work in mental health can have debt problems themselves that they find difficult to cope with, a guide for those they work with would contain information that the workers themselves are not aware of - after all their primary focus is on health not finances. Many workers now understand the importance of all their clients/patients life domains and finances is one of them, but as I said, they themselves may not be financially savvy.

There is some difficulty in getting the product to the customer, but if the guide was made available where MIND leaflets can be found - surgeries, CAB's, mental health voluntary organisations, mental health websites, then it would have quite a broad reach.

Ultimately it's something I'm passionate about - and even if only a few people are actually in a position to gain from it - jobs a good'un

It certainly is a good 'un and wonderful news, and on the back of it I'm going to ask you to consider something.

MSE members are given handles according to how many posts they make such as BONKERS MAD and MANIAC. I have always been deeply offended by
this. It stigmatises and caricatures those with mental health problems, something that is unacceptable even in the name of satire. Guidance to the inappropriate use of these words is contained in current journalist standards (sorry - can't remember the correct name).

I'm now on my second username - I changed it when my MSE awarded handle changed and labelled me as something I'm not. I shall change it again should I ever reach the same giddy heights of numerous posts.

Martin - could I ask you to consider how your guide to mental health and debt, which I'm pretty sure won't contain the words I've written about above, can sit easily alongside your site which uses the words in an unfelling and cavalier way.

BTW - best wishes and good luck with the guide, it's sorely needed. If you pull it off I will personally nominate you for a Mental Health Media award !

[conspirator]

Nice to see action taken.

Mental health in all its areas is awfull to live with for many people, myself included. People joke about me earning money for nothing and getting grants and funding for my condition. Fact is i would rather be "normal" than have 5 panic attacks in 3 days.

Cons

[danensian]

First of all thanks for addressing this issue, Martin.

I have quite a few things I would like to say on this topic and I am finding some difficulty in knowing where to start or how exactly to fit it all together into a relatively cohesive comment. So please forgive me if it reads like babble.

I have personal experience of debt and mental health problems from a number of different angles going back many years. My own mental health problem is depression but I hope that at least some of what I say here might be of use to a more general audience.

People with MH problems in my experience often live right up to, and sometimes beyond, their limits. This might be simply because they can. It sometimes makes one’s situation seem a bit lighter if one can at least appear to be just like all the ‘normal’ people but obviously comfort spending can lead to serious debt problems. Excessive spending can also be due to feelings of worthlessness where, for example, people buy gifts for others not necessarily to buy friendship or affection but perhaps to, in some way, validate themselves in the eyes of the other person. I do not accept, however, that people with MH problems should be denied credit simply on the basis of a diagnosis. Every case should be taken on its own merit. Some of the most brilliant minds in history have been plagued by mental illness yet have still managed to produce work of lasting significance. Some died in poverty, some didn’t. What if those that did had had an MSE to help them!

I used to work for the CAB in the town where I live and am still amazed at the range of attitudes of different people to debt. Some with £30 – 40K of debt were very blas! and seemed simply to accept it as part of their life style. Others with only £500 debt were absolutely paralysed with fear of the possible consequences. I know that some CABx have outreach services to MH institutions and do advise on money problems. It might be worthwhile including the CAB or other money advice organisations in the consultation for your paper, Martin. I think this proposed guide is an excellent idea and should be circulated as widely as possible. As has already been pointed out, it may not reach people in the deepest pits of despair, but could be a life saver for those carers, support workers or advisors who live or work with people with MH problems as well as the sufferers themselves in their more lucid or brighter periods. Debt can be both a cause and effect of, for example, depressive episodes and money advice could be very usefully incorporated into a holistic approach to therapy or counselling. It’s not the end of the road and it’s not an insoluble problem. There are ways of dealing with it and it is important that everyone involved – sufferers, professionals, friends and family – keep things in perspective and have appropriate information to help and guide them through the difficult times.

I was first diagnosed with depression about 25 years ago while I was a student and I got into an impossible situation (a couple of years later as a post-graduate student) whereby the grant cheque I received (every 3 months as far as I can recall) just about paid off the amount I owed to the bank. There was no way then that I could get out of debt under my own steam. Fortunately, perhaps because I was hospitalised for quite a long time, the debt was eventually written off. Not a tactic to be used lightly but worth bearing in mind if you should be unlucky enough to find yourself in that situation. Perhaps the bank had written me off as well as the debt!

I am at present unemployed, having been made redundant in April, and am signing on for Benefits (which I swore I would never do again) and back on the happy pills (which I also swore I would never do again). I was on a very good wage but have absolutely nothing left except a £3000 loan to pay off. I have PPI but wish I had researched it before I agreed to the loan from the bank (may be I could have got it cheaper!). I honestly think that I was not profligate but certainly did ‘live for today’. While I had the money I spent it and did not save anything. I also adopted perhaps the worst kind of attitude (and still do, unfortunately) and compared myself to my peers who all have their own houses, new cars, etc. and tried to live as they live. I am not an idiot and am certainly not a misunderstood genius – I just don’t handle money very well!


Sorry if this is too long and rambling but I wanted to add my support (for what it’s worth) for this project.

Best wishes to all.

P.S. It’s only money!

[MSE Martin]

Thanks for all the feedback above. It convinces me how important what we're doing is.

As for the "posting titles" I will take a look today

[Errata]

Meanwhile.............there is a MIND leaflet on managing your personal finances here

http://www.mind.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/...alfinances.pdf

It's readable on line but not downloadable. Hard copies of this leaflet and other leaflets on mental health and finances can be purchased from MIND for £2. Details on the MIND website.

[Chop]

I am delighted that Martin is involved in this work and is working with MIND on the guide. I didn't think I could admire Martin more than I do already, but he's just gone up again in my estimation. :-)

I do also agree fully with Errata about the use of language on the posting titles. I know that most of the time nobody means anything bad by using words like this, but it really does strengthen the caricatures of those with mental health problems. This poster says this better than I can: http://www.southwestyorkshire.nhs.uk...bbleposter.pdf

Anyway, I really look forward to hearing about progress on the guide.

[PaleScene]

This is a very good idea, and I'd also like to raise the opposite moneysaving/depression viewpoint, which is that routines and keeping busy are positive steps for people with depression. Therefore it may also be worth covering something about tools such as the tart alert, getting into regular routines of checking and reconciling monies, using the budget planner and generally establishing some control both on your finances and also on yourself.

[fraoch]

It's great to see something like this, I suffer from depressive episodes and anxiety and I am a carer for my partner who suffers from psychosis and liver disease and I struggle a lot of the time moneywise.

Having worked in homeless hostels in my good times, I feel this leaflet would be good for key workers to have and also available for the clients. A large proportion of this group would benefit greatly.

[curlywurlygirly]

What a great thing to be doing....

Will read whole thread and blog in it's entirety later.

Got into feduciary difficulty myself after having a nervous breakdown and not opening any post for a period of several months. Needless to say, the finances didn't take care of themselves....though as soon as I was able I addressed all outstanding issues (bills, banks etc...) though they didn't seem to think that 'complete mental breakdown' was reason enough to neglect my current account, and so the charges etc. stood.

That isn't what someone needs when they are going through I difficult time.....I must say that when you are struggling to get out of bed in the morning, reading minute T&C is hardly at the top of your agenda...

[Fran]

Originally Posted by Errata

It certainly is a good 'un and wonderful news, and on the back of it I'm going to ask you to consider something.

MSE members are given handles according to how many posts they make such as BONKERS MAD and MANIAC. I have always been deeply offended by
this. It stigmatises and caricatures those with mental health problems, something that is unacceptable even in the name of satire. Guidance to the inappropriate use of these words is contained in current journalist standards (sorry - can't remember the correct name).

I'm now on my second username - I changed it when my MSE awarded handle changed and labelled me as something I'm not. I shall change it again should I ever reach the same giddy heights of numerous posts.

Martin - could I ask you to consider how your guide to mental health and debt, which I'm pretty sure won't contain the words I've written about above, can sit easily alongside your site which uses the words in an unfelling and cavalier way.

Not everyone in the mental health field would agree :

From a thread in the 'Arms' ("pub" section of MSE site).