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Green Deal MSE Guide Discussion
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Hi. I take my hat off to you for working this out. But on the radio today the Minister responsible had to admit to having completed 1800 paid for surveys and not one has been approved for anything other than loft insulation.
On the energy saving trust site you can see details of long term assesments, not one of which shows a positive payback.
It's laughable. The standard response to queries now is to say that customers will want to go green will be prepared to pay.
Frankly, I couldn't care less what my carbon footprint is. I'm more concerned that I don't have enough money to pay my bills. And since we signed up in Kyoto, there's not much I can do about the 40 coal or oil fired generators that China intend to build in the last 3/4 of this year. I don't think recycling my beer bottles every week is going too stretch
I think it was Maslow who first understood "The Hierarchy of Needs". Once I've got my basic needs met I might start worrying about my carbon footprint. Actually, that's not true. I'd be better spending my time campaigning for every home to have it's own Nuclear option. And then if I've a few spare minutes dealing with the fact that we sit upon enough coal to see us through 50 years.
In fact STOP PRESS - what we should all be doing is demanding that our polticans stop a*****g about and tell us how they are going to keep the lights on when there is an agreed shortfall
in about 3 years time.
In one of his books Douglas Adams talks about the HOT POTATO clause in a contract. It happens when despite due diligence etc. you suddenly find out that you've made a terrible error. The contract then becomes a Hot Potato, far too hot to handle, that you must get rid of to a third party who, in turn....
I think The Boss is just plain wrong on every count.
And finally, let me put the boot in with regards to the ECO scheme. If you are clever enough to read it then you won't be able to claim it. That's if it's there. It's a legal obligation but budgets are budgets.
Aaahh... I feel better after that. My work here is done...............Hello :j
Let’s assume a householder needs all these energy saving products and services. So not including any tariff incentives etc and assuming existing property was heated by oil.
Example 1.
Cost Savings
Solid Wall Insulation 3 bed semi £12500 £475 From EST. per year
Loft Insulation 170mm top up £350 £25 From EST. per year
Solar PV Panels 16KW £12000 £88 Money saved on bill EST
£77 Money on grid export EST
Total Cost: £24850 £665 A YEAR
If interest rate is 7.67% over 25 years the householder will have to pay back
That is:
Monthly: £183
Total Interest Paid £29821
Total pay back £54671
So the householder would gain £665 a year (£55.42 month) at present bill rate per year but have to pay £183 per month at interest rate 7.67%
This would not fit under golden rule and could not be financed under green deal. Unless the householder was allowed to contribute money towards the cost or the interest rate was dropped or cost of equipment was lower.
Example 2:
Same size house gas and with out Solid Wall Insulation but has cavity walls filled.
Cost Savings
Loft Insulation 170mm top up £350 £25 From EST. per year
Solar PV Panels 16KW £12000 £88 Money saved on bill EST
£77 Money on grid export EST
Total Cost: £12350 £190 A YEAR
If interest rate is 7.67% over 25 years the householder will have to pay back
That is:
Monthly: £91
Total Interest Paid £14821
Total pay back £27171
So the householder would gain £190 a year (£15.83 month) at present bill rate per year but have to pay £91 per month at interest rate 7.67%
This would not fit under golden rule and could not be financed under green deal. Unless the householder was allowed to contribute money towards the cost or the interest rate was dropped or cost of equipment was lower.
Key Facts from Bank of England
Current Bank Rate
0.5%
View decisions and minutes
Next due:
7 Feb 2013
Quantitative Easing Asset Purchase Programme
£375 bn
More information
Next due:
7 Feb 2013
Current Inflation
2.7%
Next due:
12 Feb 2013
Inflation Target
2.0%
The interest rate from building societies for your savings of £12 000 is 2% to 2.5%. So you could assume that the lending rate for the green deal loan could be brought down to a lower figure if it was truly non profit making.
Would be glad to see someone’s realist equations that do work.
Thank you
Nigel :beer:0 -
I don't think it's the training that's the problem - it's the constant changes in the software.
I heard the minister responsible for the Green Deal shambles being interviewed on the radio this week. Sheer farce, 1800 assessments
done, 0 loans. That's a big fat zero.
The Green Deal could have been drawn up in the back of a taxi, it reminds me of "The Thick of it"
In a survey of 16 suppliers there was consensus that it wasn't going well.
Oddly enough, the minister was able to counter the bad news by quoting 4 companies who had tweeted how well it was going. Odd, that. Very strange that on exactly the day he needs some spin it rocks up.
I can't think of any reason why a company would divulge how well it was doing - unless it had been asked to dress up some projections for another purpose.
Aaahh... I feel better after that. My work here is done...............Gloucester_Lad wrote: »Graham,
I'm a DEA (EPC's for sales and rentals) but not a GDA because the Green Deal I think won't work.
I've been a DEA for a couple of years now so perhaps could claim to be one of the more experienced.
I think your belittling of the qualification is a bit unfair. Yes some course are only four days and yes the exam is a multiple choice affair. But a portfolio needs to be compiled of (in the case of DEA) five assessments of all types of property, and they have to be spot on. The exam can be resat as often as you like but the pass level is 75% and each resit sets you back another wedge of money. On top of this assessments are regularly audited on an ongoing basis and every year a set amount of relevant CPD is mandatory (Continued personal development, knowledge updating) So to regard DEA's or GDA's as "four day course wonders" is perhaps a bit out of order. It's not as easy to qualify as it might appear, and not cheap either.
However plenty of people thinking this a good career opportunity are going to pay up and go for it only to be very sadly disappointed.
I promise you a gold mine it's not. Already too many DEA's out there chasing too little work. So GDA's who think they can fall back on EPC's if the Green Deal turns out to be a dud better think again.
I only do EPC's as a sideline as part of semi retirement.
Support a family or pay a mortgage on DEA or GDA earnings? Forget it, no chance.0 -
Thank you. I always think its best to be thourough. If you are asking for advice, then people need to know as much of the picture as you can tell them.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Smart posting, I am impressed.
It's a single resevoir (no boost) immersion tank. The tank its self is plain copper, it doesn't have any of that dense foam covering it. It doesn't have a good jacket, it is a thin sheet of rockwool with a black plastic backing. The seem has a 1" gap down the front and it is held together with black duct tape. I complained about this during our assessment and was told we could get a new jacket and have it fitted for free. I have failed to find a thermostat for the tank, so it may not be adjustable.John_Pierpoint wrote: »What sort of hot water system do you have?
There is an extractor above the hob, but it doesn't ventilate outside, it just recirculates.John_Pierpoint wrote: »I am not sure it is legal to have a kitchen with no natural light and no extractor fan ventilation - major source of black mould condensation - though it is small enough not to count as a habitable room.
I am seriously considering this.John_Pierpoint wrote: »A dehumidifier run at night on E7 electricity might help.
Do you mean for the shop front? I guess it will get filled eventually, but I doubt we will get much benefit from it in the eveningJohn_Pierpoint wrote: »Presumably there is not much chance of getting a tenant for the ground floor? At least you have some insulation from the carpet.
I love the LED lights we have, and while it is not a huge saving, the drop from 9W to 3W for equivalent light output is still great! The LED lights are expensive though, so the CFL's will stay until they die.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Looks like you already have fluorescent lights, so not much more of a saving to be made by converting to LEDs. [A lot of people still have a mass of high heat halogen filament spot lights embedded in their ceilings - so fashionable in the 80s & 90s.]
Tell me about it! I pretty much knew this was the issue all along, which I thought I conveyed very well during our assessment. I think I will persist with trying to get something from the Green Deal, if that falls through, I am going to start sorting it myself with the measures you have mentioned. I will complain to get the two front windows replaced, probably board up and insulate the windows downstairs, and fit some thick perspex on foam to seal the remaining windows.John_Pierpoint wrote: »By far your biggest problem is excessive air changes, mainly through your traditional sash windows. My link to a source of DIY stick on magnetic strip panels of acrylic (aka "Perspex"), creates an effect the same as the door of your fridge, or possibly your shower enclosure.
It would completely stop the draughts, as well as halving the loss of heat through the single sheets of glass,
However if the sash windows are really lose and rattling, so much cold air is getting past them that condensation can occur on the inside of the acrylic sheet.:D
I had a very similar idea last night while looking at the window frames. I think I may do this in the little ones room in the next few days. Any ideas on where to get some good thermal blind material without having to chop up a ready made unit? I only need the fabric because I can hang it flush to the window frame with velcro.John_Pierpoint wrote: »You can also "velcro" a blind or curtian lining to the window frame, pr male up a shutter to cover the window, but that is not much good during daylight.
You would. If there was, I would be trying to get a wood burner installed! Living out in the sticks, I have plenty of mates who could give logs at a very reduced rate.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Would I be right in thinking you have no open chimneys ?
Here is the EPC with some data removed http://www.customcameras.org.uk/EPC1.pdfJohn_Pierpoint wrote: »I am not impressed by the Energy Performance Certificate either, what did that suggest?
This is the first EPC that has been done to my knowledge. The flat is rented by my OH, she started renting just before I met her and has been just putting up with things until I came along and told her she didn't have to live that way!John_Pierpoint wrote: »Were you provided with the EPC to help you make the decision to rent this ice bucket of a flat?
We have to dry indoors too. We have a tumble, but it can only be used on about half of our washing. There is no outside area to dry the other clothes, so it has to go on an airer.John_Pierpoint wrote: »As manager of a BTL I used this magnetic technique to get rid of condensation running down the windows - most of the problem was caused by the student tenants drying washing on the gas fired radiators.
The bathroom (with its new double glazing) is actually one of the warmest rooms in the flat. It used to be an absolute disaster. I think I metioned in another thread that our little one would cry and scream in pain when we tried to shower her because it was so cold! Now with the new windows and a small oil heater on the lowes settings, it is one of the nicest rooms to be in! This is why I am pushing for a double glazing upgrade, I simply cannot argue with the overwhelming results from upgrading the windows!John_Pierpoint wrote: »I think I would abandon trying to heat the bathroom and stair well and concentrate on sealing the kitchen door.
The stair well and reception room have been virtually abandoned. We leave the heater on full for the cat who sleeps out there at night because he cant be trusted to not destroy everything in sight!
Fortunately the kitchen door is already good, nice thick wood and barely any draught. We mostly keep this shut to keep the heat in.
Thank you for all your helpful advice, it's nice just to talk about it all. Just getting it all off my chest and hearing interesting ideas is improving my mood about the situation.:D0 -
Here is the Occupancy Assessment. I have removed any personal data (I hope).
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It's a single resevoir (no boost) immersion tank. The tank its self is plain copper, it doesn't have any of that dense foam covering it. It doesn't have a good jacket, it is a thin sheet of rockwool with a black plastic backing. The seem has a 1" gap down the front and it is held together with black duct tape. I complained about this during our assessment and was told we could get a new jacket and have it fitted for free. I have failed to find a thermostat for the tank, so it may not be adjustable.
Does the immersion heater hang vertically from the top of the tank or is it poked in horizontally in the side, near the bottom.
In the 1970's I installed central heating (myself) and deliberately had to make a hatch into the loft, so that I could swap over the fancy dual length immersion. However it was more than twice the price of a single element and did not last as long (my water is pretty "aggressive"); So these days we make do with showers and the tank full lasts all day usually. Obviously, if you have a large household, perhaps including teenage girls, the sums might work out differently. A modern immersion has both an adjustable thermostat AND a thermal cut out, you probably have to remove the cover to get at it [here comes an electrician to tell you you are not allowed to ???]
My original (1960s) tank had a totally inadequate nominally 1" cover.
This tank us now swathed in disused sleeping bags (polyester ideally multi hollow fibre high tog, picked up for next too nothing at a boot sale. Then the old jacked and the new one have been put over the top to create a "Mitchelen Man" of a tank [Put a flower pot over the cap of the immersion (ideally a ceramic one rather than a flammable one to keep the insulation away from the electrics. - fire risk]
There is an extractor above the hob, but it doesn't ventilate outside, it just recirculates.
[Dehumidifier ?]
I am seriously considering this.
Some posters on here claim extracting humidity inside the flat works out cheaper than both drying on radiators and using a tumble dryer us no electrical power ends up in the garden and the appliance gets back the latent heat in the vapour, before it can condense in the walls and make mould trouble. Then require extra heating to dry it out for a second time..
Do you mean for the shop front? I guess it will get filled eventually, but I doubt we will get much benefit from it in the evening
That is probably your biggest problem - but I cannot see the landlord squirting fibre into the flooring void through the ceiling of the shop.
You are not "end of terrace", as it were, are you?
I wonder how over heated the folks upstairs keep their flat?
I love the LED lights we have, and while it is not a huge saving, the drop from 9W to 3W for equivalent light output is still great! The LED lights are expensive though, so the CFL's will stay until they die.
Tell me about it! I pretty much knew this was the issue all along, which I thought I conveyed very well during our assessment. I think I will persist with trying to get something from the Green Deal, if that falls through, I am going to start sorting it myself with the measures you have mentioned. I will complain to get the two front windows replaced, probably board up and insulate the windows downstairs, and fit some thick "Perspex" on foam to seal the remaining windows.
Acrylic held in place by magnets is far easier to use, and can be put on the window ledge to open the upper sash in the summer.
If you Google the concept you will find firms offering cut and fit it yourself kits. But if I was your landlord and thought you knew what you were doing, I would be prepared to do a deal, where landlord pays the material costs and you pay the labour.
In addition to the the link in my previous post, here is another one for more or less the same stuff.
http://www.ecoease.co.uk/
It is not as simple as the interviewee makes it sound, especially with sash windows.
If the Victorians built square 120 years ago, there is no guarantee the frames still are - always measure the diagonals and work out what has happened if they are not the same.
I had a very similar idea last night while looking at the window frames. I think I may do this in the little ones room in the next few days. Any ideas on where to get some good thermal blind material without having to chop up a ready made unit? I only need the fabric because I can hang it flush to the window frame with velcro.
You would. If there was, I would be trying to get a wood burner installed! Living out in the sticks, I have plenty of mates who could give logs at a very reduced rate.
Here is the EPC with some data removed http://www.customcameras.org.uk/EPC1.pdf
It is a bit of a joke - as the minimum interest rate is (say) 7%-8% then the most the flat could borrow is about £2k. and as you say it is the landlord that gets the benefit for years to come.
This is the first EPC that has been done to my knowledge. The flat is rented by my OH, she started renting just before I met her and has been just putting up with things until I came along and told her she didn't have to live that way!
We have to dry indoors too. We have a tumble [condensing?], but it can only be used on about half of our washing. There is no outside area to dry the other clothes, so it has to go on an airer.
The bathroom (with its new double glazing) is actually one of the warmest rooms in the flat. It used to be an absolute disaster. I think I metioned in another thread that our little one would cry and scream in pain when we tried to shower her because it was so cold! Now with the new windows and a small oil heater on the lowes settings, it is one of the nicest rooms to be in! This is why I am pushing for a double glazing upgrade, I simply cannot argue with the overwhelming results from upgrading the windows!
When was the stairwell "pod" built on the back?
Presumably it is modern cavity wall and perhaps was built with "foam" concrete blocks, glued together rather than using mortar and has an insulated cavity 2" - 4" wide (the specifications get "better" almost annually).
My daughter converted an outbuilding into a [STRIKE]bedroom[/STRIKE] hobbies room
and we threw lots of insulation at it up down and sideways and created a 10' x 12' room that stayed warm, with only a small oil filled electrical heater.
The stair well and reception room have been virtually abandoned. We leave the heater on full for the cat who sleeps out there at night because he cant be trusted to not destroy everything in sight!
Fortunately the kitchen door is already good, nice thick wood and barely any draught. We mostly keep this shut to keep the heat in.
:T
Thank you for all your helpful advice, it's nice just to talk about it all. Just getting it all off my chest and hearing interesting ideas is improving my mood about the situation.:D
Replacement storage heaters are better (what make and model have you at the moment?) because they are more controllable, but I cannot see the landlord buying them, when the old ones still work.
Blokes, especially elderly ones like me, are happy to relax in a shed, but the fair sex suffer from "nest competition" and hate any solution that makes them look poor so steer away from the bubble wrap type solutions.
Good luck.
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Green Deal facts, just facts ........... the reality
- to comply with the 80%/2050 the UK needs to be retrofitting one dwelling per minute, every single minute on minute
- to comply with the 80%/2050 the UK needs to be retrofitting 56,000 per month every single month on month
- to comply with the 80%/2050 the UK needs to be retrofitting 700,000 dwellings per year every single year on year
The GOV is 'real time' monitoring the green deal uptake, why do they refuse to put out the even the uptake figures let alone completion figures. Nationwide [Green Deal v2 Home Owner Rate] up to now is the only offering of energy efficiency loans with anything approaching reasonable interest rates of just 2.29%, that's 60% less than the GD rates which are far too high at 7%, the interest repayments will inevitably end up costing more than the 'greening' itself, and, if you are a diligent sensible individual who even dares to pay the loan-debt off early you are rewarded with a disproportionate fine. The policy design of the scheme to keep out footpads and thieves in the night, will, and is already being quietly 'blind sided' by GOV as they realise that the political numbers needs can only be satisfied by double glazing sales techniques and Nigerian boiler room scams - anything it takes Boris style !
For lstar337, an overview [at least two coffees long read - information overload] of night store & night water heating is here.Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ0 -
I have had my house green assessment and i knew only needed a new boiler(13yrs+) the company (APS) came back with an £800 upfront fee but could not explain where the fee came from . they just said the software came up with the price and that is that !! it is being investigated by the original contact (instagroup). i shall keep you updated :beer:0
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Very useful posting, Richie-from-the-Boro thanks.
What does the "pilot" wire do? I am sure my system has not got one.
Cable should be 1.0m, 4 core cable (live, neutral, earth, pilot) supplied fitted to each heater0 -
Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »Thinsualte type shades / blinds are a better bet where you can't change the windows / frames. One heck of a price though and have to be bespoke .. .. as in the gaps are as important as the shade.
A set of bespoke old fashioned wooden shutters with a thermal lining barrier [50%] will do almost as much as double glazing at 50%. NOTE - solid not plantation shutters which I gave only as a sizing reference.
The gaps are as important as the shades / blinds / shutters, if you are not able to build to a near zero gap, keep yer money in yer pocket. If you have a small window in the loo or wherever building a test shade / blind / shutter might be a worthwhile other avenue to explore. You can get them made, the Americans use them in their millions but buying efficient ready made with the right quality insulator is almost the same price a double glazing.
.......... something to ponder for those who can not for whatever reason have double glazing ...............
Heat Loss Reduction Values are ish !
- double-glazing 55%
- secondary glazing + insulated shutters 77%
- secondary glazing + heavy curtains 66%
- stand alone insulated shutters 60%
- honeycomb blinds 36%
- modern insulated roller blinds 22%
Richie, blowing smoke up your a**e or, in my case, bubbles - good post! This is an excellent alternative to secondary and double/triple glazing -totally overlooked although not by our forefathers - odd that!
Excellent money saving tip! (One, I have just recommended to a school in Dorset too, incidentally!)
COME ON THREADERS - MONEYSAVINGEXPERT is the name of this forum!!!!!!
High five Richie!
xx
Making progress0 -
I'm not really sure where the element is, it is out of view. It could be around the back or one of the sides which is not really accessible.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Does the immersion heater hang vertically from the top of the tank or is it poked in horizontally in the side, near the bottom.
Looking at the post by Richie-from-the-Boro here it says that a Eco7 heated tank should have 60mm of spray on insulation. Ours has none, and the jacket is total crap too. Looking at what Richie says about legionnaires, not only is our tank not efficient at storing heat, it is actually pretty dangerous!
We have had symptoms of this before but never suspected the water, In fact we have all made comments about how we have had a persistant cough since long before Christmas!
EDIT: Looking about online, I can't see a single tank for sale that doesn't have insulation already sprayed onto the outside. I have no idea how old the tank is in the flat, but it is plain copper, no spray foam at all! We must be losing so much heat from this thing!
Is it even legal to have a tank this poor in rented accommodation?
It's just a standard hob extractor, I doubt it is a dehumidifier. I think it just has a filter that removes oil and junk from the air.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Dehumidifier?
Might be worth a try. My parents have a fairly heavy duty model that they use in their conservatory. They'll probably let me borrow it for a bit as an experiment.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Some posters on here claim extracting humidity inside the flat works out cheaper than both drying on radiators and using a tumble dryer us no electrical power ends up in the garden and the appliance gets back the latent heat in the vapour, before it can condense in the walls and make mould trouble. Then require extra heating to dry it out for a second time..
We have a condensing Tumble drier. It's good, but due to being downstairs in the dampest room in the flat, I fear it spends most of its effort condensing the damp air in the room than drying the washing! It can barely make it through a single cycle befor having to empty the water resevoir!
No, mid terrace.John_Pierpoint wrote: »You are not "end of terrace", as it were, are you?..
No idea, and I don't think they would understand if I asked. They likely get a fair bit of heat from us!John_Pierpoint wrote: »I wonder how over heated the folks upstairs keep their flat?
I put a thermal blind in the small bedroom yesterday, it does seem to have helped.John_Pierpoint wrote: »I had a very similar idea last night while looking at the window frames. I think I may do this in the little ones room in the next few days. Any ideas on where to get some good thermal blind material without having to chop up a ready made unit? I only need the fabric because I can hang it flush to the window frame with velcro.
John_Pierpoint wrote: »When was the stairwell "pod" built on the back?
I don't know when it was built, but I can tell you it has awful build quality. The walls are made from red brick on the outside, not sure about the inside. The walls are allways damp, so it would seem like there is no cavity at all. The plaster literally bubles on the inside. It is easily the worst area of the flat, which is why we stay away from it!John_Pierpoint wrote: »Presumably it is modern cavity wall and perhaps was built with "foam" concrete blocks, glued together rather than using mortar and has an insulated cavity 2" - 4" wide (the specifications get "better" almost annually).
I really don't have any beef with the storage heaters. One is severely underated for the area it has to heat, and they do look a little scuffed and worn, but they are functional, and the do work! It's where the heat goes that is the issue.John_Pierpoint wrote: »Replacement storage heaters are better (what make and model have you at the moment?) because they are more controllable, but I cannot see the landlord buying them, when the old ones still work.
The heater appear to be current according to Dimplex. We have a XLS24N - 3.4kW in the living room, two XLS18N - 2.55kW in each of the bedrooms, and a XLS12N - 1.7kW for the landing/stairwell/downstairs reception room.
They all have automatic charge controls for the imput, so unless they are faulty internally, I don't see them being improved upon.0
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