Vitamin D form sunlihgt - seems Ted is right.

djohn2002uk · 4 January 2008 at 9:55PM

Ted. Could you let us have a truthful and unbiased account of the benefits you personally have found, short term, from taking 5000iu daily. The long term benefits I will request from you in about 15yrs. :rotfl:

Ted_Hutchinson · 4 January 2008 at 11:54PM

djohn2002uk wrote: »

Ted. Could you let us have a truthful and unbiased account of the benefits you personally have found, short term, from taking 5000iu daily. The long term benefits I will request from you in about 15yrs

I am absolutely confident that the health benefits detailed here by Lousie GagneMD University of Saskatchewan will apply to everyone who follows her advice but obviously with the proviso that what she recommends for Saskatchewan patients will be based on the fact that town is one of the sunniest at that latitude. Where we live has a third less hours of sunshine so we have lower base levels of vitamin D. Canadians have vit d fortified milk we don't. Cereals such as Cheerios are vit d fortified in Canada they aren't here. Remember every little helps if you aren't getting enough.

So bearing in mind Canadians have more access to vitamin D than we do it is logical that we will need more vitamin d here to enjoy equal health benefits of optimal Vitamin D status.

The immediate personal benefits I can claim honestly, truthfully and completely unbiased are less joint pain in ankles wrists and lower back. I'd been through almost all the prescription pain killers and the side effects were worse than the pain they were trying to mask. Now I have to think about how bad my joints are rather then lying in bed wishing I could be rid of my ankles and wrists. The problem is still there, nothing is going to undue the polio damage but if it doesn't bother me all the time that is a great blessing.

Extra muscle strength makes life a lot easier. I still can't walk far but I can stand for long enough to prepare a meal and do the washing up. It makes life so much easier not being stuck in a chair all the time. Cooking in a wheelchair is a pain. Knowing I can go where I like without having to be certain I've a wheelchair with me or waiting at the other end makes life so much easier.

NOT FALLING OVER. The extra muscle strength means I've forgotten when I last had a fall. Because my leg was weak and my left ankle didn't keep my foot from trailing I used (when tired) to forget to lift my leg high enough and kept tripping on insignificant objects/ledges. I used to crash down with such force that not only the emotional upset of having fallen distressed me terribly I was physically injured and it would take several days for me to recover and feel confident about going out again.

My mood is much better, this time of years previously I'd be too depressed to get out of bed, I was frequently on the brink of suicide this time of year swing from manic highs to lows uncontrollably. I still get cross with people who do not appear to be thinking logically but I feel I've kept my cool much better than in the past.

The extra photo-protection I gained from having a high vitamin D status initially at the start of last summer meant I never ever in the year had to wear sunscreen. I also tanned very quickly. Of course I didn't want to spoil the vitamin D by staying in the sun too long but even on the hottest days last year there was not the hint of pink on my skin.

You may know I have to self catheterise 5 times daily, this means inserting a foreign object (15inch flexible plastic pipe to be precise) down a sensitive part of my body. Previously I was plagued with repeat UTI's .Anyone who has repeatedly had a urinary tract infection will know how depressing they can be. In the end I was so fed up I got put on a permanent low dose antibiotic but taking a permanent antibiotic is not ideal. I've been able to stop the low dose antibiotic because of the antibiotic properties of high strength vitamin D.

No colds no flu no need for a flu jab since boosting vit d status. If I cut myself it heals. I used always to be injuring myself and scratches used to go manky and septic if I didn't keep them disinfected. I don't have to worry now.

Lower blood pressure.

Obviously I can't be certain to what extent I've reduced my cancer risk but having the natural status my body would enjoy if I was able to get sunshine the whole year round can't be a bad thing can it?

I can't think of anything else at the moment but I think I get my 5p a days worth from using that little capsule. I'm not kidding anyone. It doesn't make any difference to me what you personally decide to do. I'm deadly serious, I know it has made a tremendous difference to my daily life. I wouldn't waste my time trying to ensure the correct up to date facts are put online and brought to the public's attention if I had the slightest doubt about the accuracy of the information I am providing.

You may laugh but has anyone ever proved with published peer reviewed scientific medical evidence that anything I have posted online was inaccurate or subject to serious doubt?

I really was on the brink of saying to hell with it I was in such pain, living was too difficult, I really didn't want to be a wheelchair bound cripple for the rest of my days I really hated being looked after all the time.

I know I'm not going to get any better now, but at least I can manage. If I don't go downhill, back to where I was 3 years ago, I'll be delighted to report back to you in 2023.

The New Vitamin D

PS Cleaning my teeth this morning reminded me of one other benefit from optimal vitamin d status. I don't have to use Bonjela any more. I used to get mouth ulcers regularly and my gums would bleed very easily if I had to prog between my teeth or brushed too hard.

Having the Grandchildren to stay for a few days over the New Year really brought home to me the benefits of being stronger and more mobile. A few years ago I couldn't join in any of their games or play with them on the beach, go swimming with them, build dens or take them for bike rides. OK it's taken a couple of days to recover from having them and doing all that extra activity but being fit enough to be able to play with your Grandchildren really adds to Quality of Life. I can now plan to buy tickets to go to concerts/exhibitions knowing I will probably be fit to travel and/or manage to get round the exhibition.

The difference between living as a permanent invalid who needs help with many everyday tasks and just being someone with a somewhat disabling long term condition is immense. I just want others to benefit as I have done.

mo79 · 5 January 2008 at 12:47AM

I don't know Ted personally and an acceptance of his view is not based on mindless nodding rather than discovering footsteps already trodden.

My brother (in his 20s) suffered muscular weakness and 2 seizures. At first epilepsy was mooted but they had to look further in his case because of problems with his leg muscles.
Lo and behold they fortunately discovered he had very low calcium and very low D. Aggressive treatment (albeit with D2) has completely cured him. He just needs to maintain his D while he no longer needs higher calcium.

Out of interest I (healthy) got my D tested and it was very low (but I was fine in calcium), so I thought it's best to address this. Funny thing is, one endocrinologist believed anything between 15-120nmol/L is fine and offered me 400IU D2, another believed 50nmol/L+ (my brother's) and a GP and nurse haven't much idea about it. This is why I decided to self research; because 2 specialists in endocrinology didn't give a matching answer.

It interests me as my father suffers from high blood pressure and I always thought "why?" there must be a reason than it just "is". He hasn't tried D yet, but I'm working on it.
Both me and my father have high cholesterol (though mine's only slightly high to not warrant treatment) and since UVB turns cholesterol in the skin into vitamin D...ding!

It is arterial calcification (stray calcium) that causes heart disease; high cholesterol probably indicates low D. It is depletion of a natural antibiotic that allows cancers and flues to flourish, it is decreased insulin sensitivity that leads to diabetes. I could go on.

I can't talk much further as I'm not a doctor and have only been looking at this since August. But what's clear is that D is an important thing. If you're wary, then get a D test first and then try to raise your D. It won't harm you, and if you don't feel any improvement you at least feel 'insured'.

Codswallop · 5 January 2008 at 7:32AM

Hi Ted

Still enjoying all your research on vitamin D.

I have been taking 1000 IU of D3 for over a month now and I'm feeling quite strong. I'd like to have my vitamin D status tested, don't mind paying privately if the GP won't do it. With reference to the Doctors Laboratory weblink you gave, can an individual send a blood sample to them or does the quantity of blood required negate this and require a medical professional to do the test?

I'd also like to get my Dad tested as he has severe osteoporosis (has lost 3-4 inches over the past 3 years) and the BUPA professionals have only prescribed 400iu of D3 which I now believe is nowhere near enough. I believe the tablets he has are called Calcichews. He also had to take medication for a prostate problem that unfortunately accelerated the bone loss. Worse still, he has no evidence of what his vitamin D status was after the numerous blood tests taken! Time for patients to take action and to do their own research!

Look forward to your reply, thanks for your help.

Ted_Hutchinson · 5 January 2008 at 10:14AM

Codswallop wrote: »

I have been taking 1000 IU of D3 for over a month now and I'm feeling quite strong.

Look at the graph and tell me how high 1000iu/d will raise your status?

View larger version (15K):
[in this window]

Do some simple arithmetic. 400iu raises status between 7-12nmol/l
what is the lowest and highest rise in status 1000iu/d may reasonably achieve?
What reasons can you provide that indicate your current status is higher than the UK white adult current average?
If you think you are about average then you will be around 40nmol/l in January.
Will the addition of either the lowest or highest figures you worked out earlier raise your status to 80nmol/l the figure associated with optimal uptake/control of calcium and 72% lower colon cancer incidence.?
Will you get anywhere near the 125nmol/l associated with optimal feelings of well being and lowest overall cancer incidence.
This is basic simple arithmetic not medical advice.

With reference to the Doctors Laboratory weblink you gave, can an individual send a blood sample to them or does the quantity of blood required negate this and require a medical professional to do the test?

I phoned them yesterday and they said that you have to go to your doctor. Take the web addy with you and he will be able to download a referral form. I think they then tell the GP what blood to take and post to them. They send the results back to him for interpretation but as mo79 has indicated you may have to take his view or what is sufficient/insufficient with a pinch of salt.

I'd also like to get my Dad tested as he has severe osteoporosis (has lost 3-4 inches over the past 3 years) and the BUPA professionals have only prescribed 400iu of D3 which I now believe is nowhere near enough. I believe the tablets he has are called Calcichews.

Agreed.
We know all the vitamin d experts agree Supplemental intake of 400 IU vitamin D/d has only a modest effect on blood concentrations of 25(OH)D, raising them by 7–12 nmol/L, depending on the starting point
But you cannot simply increase the Calcichews. Increasing Vitamin D status enables proper control of calcium/phosphate homeostasis. The absorption of calcium from the diet will improve and so additional calcium from further Chacitchews may create a problem. He just needs sufficient vitamin D to raise his status, because he already has cancer, to 150nmol/l

He also had to take medication for a prostate problem that unfortunately accelerated the bone loss. Worse still, he has no evidence of what his vitamin D status was after the numerous blood tests taken! .

Please look at my contributions to the thread here.and
The Vitamin D Newsletter January, 2008
It is this scenario that really makes me angry with the medical profession.

If you read The New Vitamin D you would see "“Right now we believe that 1 alpha, 25-dihydroxy vitamin D3 downregulates pro-inflammatory cytokines including interleukin 12, interleukin 2, and interferon gamma, and that it enhances cytokines that inhibit inflammation, including interleukin 4 and interleukin 10,”

and still people with cancer do not have their vitamin D deficiency corrected.
If Mo79's dad is typical older male his current status will be in the 25nmol/l ish.

mr_rush · 5 January 2008 at 11:08AM

Show me one double blind randomised controlled trial that backs up what you say. then perhaps I might pay some attention to the rubbish you spew out.

mr_rush · 5 January 2008 at 3:20PM

a double blind RCT does not need to be funded by a pharmacological company - how about the MRC or the Wellcome trust - they have an endowment of £10 billion or so so a few million for the miracle wonder pill that is vit d shouldn't be out of their reach. So Ted why does a charity not fund the research? Are you lobbying the Wellcome?

As for the D3, I'm not going to pander to your ego and get in touch with the pharmacist at my previous hospital to find the exact code used. I wrote it and it was given - I never saw a specific product identifier - you know a bit busy with looking after the 40 or so patients with lung cancer, MI's and COPD exacerbations.

nightsong · 5 January 2008 at 3:56PM

While I am interested in the research on Vitamin D and respect Ted's open description of his health while he has been taking the supplements, once again he spoils what could be a useful discussion with his inability to accept that others may not see the world exactly as he does.

In my view his 'expert' stance and contempt for established medical opinion, including the suggestion that visiting your GP for advice in this area is pointless, is potentially dangerous. Medical advice is not allowed on this site.

nightsong · 5 January 2008 at 4:17PM

The following quotes are all from Ted -

'It therefore is safer IMO for mo79 to take the extra now and raise status to protect himself than go to his doctor only be told 2000iu is the safe upper limit and it is inadvisable to take more. That is all the official advice will permit his doctor to say. '

'Where is your evidence your GP has a suitable product available to correct vitamin D3 insufficiency?
Name that product and state the NHS product identifier.
If you can't put up shut up.'

'I know it is difficult for health professionals to grasp the idea that by abiding by official policy they are doing more harm than good but until you spend as much time as I do researching this matter you will continue to do so. '

On the basis of the above comments I have reported this thread.

Ted_Hutchinson · 5 January 2008 at 4:18PM

nightsong wrote: »

the suggestion that visiting your GP for advice in this area is pointless, is potentially dangerous.

Can you provide any peer reviewed published evidence to support that statement?
I can provide evidence saying the absence of toxicity in trials conducted in healthy adults that used vitamin D dose $ge.gif$ 250 µg/d (10 000 IU vitamin D3) supports the confident selection of this value as the UL.

Now it's your turn to provide the peer reviewed evidence showing there may be a danger.

Vitamin D form sunlihgt - seems Ted is right.

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