Advice please! - FTB worried about great big crack!

carolt · 1 March 2007 at 11:24PM

We had an offer accepted on a house at asking price of 275K. Round here market has recently gone stupid and there is nothing else affordable. According to EA, 2 other couples were chasing this house and it got 3 offers on first day of viewings at asking price, including from us. We were rung back a few hours later to say we hadn't got it - it had been given to one of other buyers - no reason given. But 2 weeks later, EA phoned up to say did we still want house, as original buyers had pulled out due to 'change of circumstances'. Had had valuation survey done, apparently.

So we then went back to view house as husband hadn't even seen it! (had had to make initial offer while he was at work). It clearly needs a lot of work - no kitchen to speak of, appalling state of repair (vendors old couple, one disabled) - but knew this when we put the offer in. BUT on this viewing my dh spotted a massive CRACK at top of stairs - about a centimetre wide - next to and roughly parallel to bedroom door. Is this subsidence - could it be anything else, being that wide? Asked estate agent, who swore property didn't have subsidence, but how would she know? Also worried in case this (or other unspecified problem) is reason previous buyers pulled out. Asked EA to ask previous buyers to sell us their valuation report, so could see cheaply any major probs with property, without having to pay for full survey or mortgage fees, but after initially agreeing, other person (junior) at EA's told me I couldn't do this as it was just a valuation report and wouldn't tell me this.

Is that true? Would a valuation report not even tell you if a property had subsidence - surely this would affect the valuation?

Otherwise, will have to get independent Hoemebuyer's/Structural survey done - but a cost of hundreds - is it even worth it if blatantly has subsidence? I've read online not all cracks are subsidence, but this is BIG!!!

Help! I really want to buy, but don't want to waste loads of money on a house that's a non-starter...

Oh, and by the way, the house is at the end of a culdesac 3 houses away from a wood - so no shortage of trees. And only work owners have done in 22 years of living there (they told us this when went round) is putting in a massive patio....

Tiger_greeneyes · 1 March 2007 at 11:44PM

I'm afraid there's no way of knowing whether or not it's subsidence until you've had your surveyor around to look at it.

There's a couple of things you could start off by doing:

1. You could ask your lender for a Building Survey (aka structural survey), but speak to the surveyor before s/he attends (you're entitled to speak to the surveyor if you're getting a BS or Homebuyer's Report done). If there's major structural works, then ask them to abort the Building Survey so it won't cost you anything. You would still have to have the valuation report though, and you'd still have to pay for it.

I managed survey offices for Abbey and General Accident for 12 years and it was quite usual practice to abort the BS, although they don't like doing it because it mucks up their diary for the day. Probably best to get it in writing first - ask your solicitor about that if necessary. If the surveyor isn't happy about it, then ask the lender to send the instructions to a surveyor who can oblige - it's your money so you can have a say in it.

2. You might even be able to purchase the previous survey from the people who pulled out - although there's no legal weight to it, it would be for your information only. If time is on your side, this would be the most straightforward approach - unless the previous purchaser doesn't want to help you out, of course.

There's always up's and downs when buying and selling property - try to stay detached if you can, however much you love the house! That way you'll be better placed to walk away if you need to - and avoid costly problems - and there'll always be another house you love just as much

I hope it all goes well for you

nelly_2 · 2 March 2007 at 6:45AM

Theres loads of reasons for cracks although a centimetre wide is a bit hefty to say the least.

carolt · 4 March 2007 at 8:28PM

Thank you, esp Tiger greeneyes.

Was estate agent junior right to say that valuation survey wouldn't mention if the property had subsidence? Surely this affect value of property?

And has anyone ever come across/had a crack in their property that was 1cm wide that wasn't subsidence?

Reluctant to spend £1000 or more for a full structural survey (is that the right kind of price for a full survey on a 3 bed end terraced in Greater London) if there is subsidence....

Also, does anyone know, if the surveyor suspected subsidence, would this have to be confirmed by a structural engineer? If so, how much would this cost, and would it be better to go in first with a structural engineer if it was much cheaper than the full survey, or can you not do this? Then if it got the all-clear from him, I'd be ok to spend £1000 plus on the survey - just don't want to waste that much money if it's a non-starter.

Many thanks!

ccygirl · 4 March 2007 at 9:02PM

We had a similar experience when we bought our house. The EA conviently couldn't open the garage when we viewed. We didn't think anything of it and made an offer the next day. Offer agreed, we proceeded to apply for mortgage . My husband works in contruction and thought we would only need the basic valuation as he couldn't see any problems. Lo and behold there was evidence of movement in the garden walls and garage! Anyway long story short and all that, we had to have a structural engineer - The EA wasn't v happy about it but did say the vendor would pay for it it would be about £300.
The structural engineer confirmed subsidence in the garage and garden walls. We still went ahead with the purchase as the garage was at the other end of the 80ft garden and the house was structually sound although we can't insure the garage or garden walls.

The basic valuation will make comments about movement if they suspect subsidence and if it's the house then they won't give you a mortgage on it, so it will affect the valuation!

I don't reccomend having the vendor pay for the survey asin my experience it gives you less to bargain with.

Doozergirl · 4 March 2007 at 9:14PM

OP, have you renovated houses before? I suspect this might be a baptism of fire if not. If they haven't touched it for 22 years, the list of what will need doing is going to be a long one.

Also, when you say 'affordable' are we talking asking price or asking price + cost of work?

I've not bought a house with a crack that big that didn't have issues.

If the last buyer fell at the first hurdle of the valuation report, I'd be worried for you, especailly if people are otherwise tripping over themselves to buy it.

What you could do if you are insistant on going ahead is to ask the vendor to pay for a structural engineer to come out first off before you spend anything on it. Cost upwards of £300 in London, I should think. Then I also think you need to have a full structural survey as a homebuyers report is guaranteed to simply list that you need to have every kind of specialist out to look at it.

"Buy cheap, pay dear" is my husband's motto!

carolt · 4 March 2007 at 10:21PM

Thank you! - thanks button not working but will use it when it is!

Doozergirl - I know you know a lot about these things - I don't at all but am getting increasingly desperate for somewhere of our own after several other houses came to nothing due to owners taking them off the market etc. - do you have any vague ballpark figures as to how much it would cost to completely redecorate 3 bed house incl probably rewiring (wiring looked pretty ropy to me) and new boiler (plumbing likewise) and fitting kitchen (it has no fitted kitchen at all to speak of). Oh, and removing massive great ugly metal garage/shed they've positioned in the middle of the patio, blocking out light and most of room on patio, for some unaccountable reason!

Any guesses, even within a few thousand, would be helpful. We'd do as much as we could ourselves, but obviously plumbing and electrics is beyond us (as is removing garage). Are we being unrealistic re its affordability? I'd budgeted 10-15 grand - is that too little?

Help! All very stressful and we haven't even got anywhere yet.

Tiger_greeneyes · 4 March 2007 at 10:28PM

Carolt

Regarding your question about 1cm cracks - there is such a thing as historic (but not ongoing) movement. This could be wartime bomb damage (for example) where the property moved because of the blast - but hasn't moved since. In that case, it would just be a case of making good.

Any potential structural movement should be picked up on a basic mortgage valuation.

If a surveyor suspects structural movement, he/she would suggest a structural engineer be commissioned to carry out a survey. This would be a stipulation of your mortgage - the lender wouldn't lend without a structural engiineer's report, and would likely stick a full retention on the mortgage until the report was gained.

It's really a personal choice as to which survey to go for as they all do different things. You will have to have a mortgage valuation, so discount that as a choice. You really need to think about what level of detail you want to a report to go into. The surveyor will report on everything else as well as the crack, so it's still just as important to get the advice.

Whether you have a homebuyers or a building survey (structural survey) is just a matter of how much information you require on the house. The homebuyers will tell you where there are problems, the building survey will go into how you should be rectifying the problems and possibly into costs as well.

They're both worth having, it's just about what you personally would be happier with

callmelinda · 4 March 2007 at 10:36PM

Well, before considering potentially wasting money on any survey...

When I went viewing an old house I was thinking of purchasing, I took a builder I knew with me who was happy to have a good look over the house and basically price up what would need doing as went along. I would try to find a builder or if you don't know one, ask friends and family if they know a good one. As the builder would hope to get the work from you should you buy the house, they might do this for free as was in my case (I just bought him some wine as a token of my thanks).

I'm not saying a builder is a surveyor, but it's a more useful and perhaps a free tool before getting a survey, which of course you would need anyway later on.

You would also end up with a quote for everything you'd want to change which is another thing you want, so kill two birds with one stone!

Tiger_greeneyes · 4 March 2007 at 10:41PM

Carolt, I've just read your last post - are you buying the house because there's nothing else about? If so, think twice about it! Even if it takes longer, isn't it worth buying something you love, rather than making do with something just because it's available?

I'd say £10-15k sounds a bit on the conservative side, boilers are around £3k fitted, a basic kitchen around £2,500 (maybe more, depending on the fitter) and rewiring would be £2-3k. If you and your husband aren't doing the upgrading works yourself (ie paying for lots of labour) then the rest of the money would be swallowed up relatively quickly. I'm assuming you want a new bathroom, too... £2k would be about right for a mid range bathroom to be bought and fitted - that's roughly £10k gone before you start on the rest of the house. Carpets would cost around £3k upwards. If you needed any plastering done (I can guarantee you will do!) then that's your funds disappeared entirely before you even buy a pot of paint.

It might be worth a trip around B&Q with a list of what you want to achieve - and then put prices to it. Add on around 10% - if not more - for a contingency fund.

It's never a straightforward as it sounds, unfortunately.

carolt · 4 March 2007 at 10:41PM

Have I got you right, Tiger greeneyes, that the basic mortgage valuation that the previous buyers who pulled out would have had, would have covered if there was evidence of subsidence? Ie that the estate agent (who I trust as far as I could throw) was telling porkies? If that was the case, then my cheapest option would be to go back to EA and ask again for them to ask original buyers if I can buy their survey off them - it's no use to them now.

Obviously, if I'm reasonably convinced that the property doesn't have subsidence (whatever other problems it clearly does have) I'd need to have a much fuller survey. But don't want to spend all that money if it's a complete non-starter anyway.

Re earlier post, I liked the idea of asking for full survey but asking surveyor to abort it if evidence of major structural damage. But can I really ask a surveyor to abort a survey? Wouldn't they just charge me anyway if that's what I've commissioned them to do?

Any advice much appreciated.

Advice please! - FTB worried about great big crack!

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