Credit Card Agreement - Request and Dispute

HouseHuntr · 19 September 2009 at 12:30PM

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Do you have nothing better to do than sit there and press buttons on a computer :T

Your post count and time spent preaching here suggests you don't !!

never-in-doubt · 19 September 2009 at 1:25PM

~Brock~ wrote: »

Not 100% accurate. If a lender can demonstrate to a court that its procedures at the time of the loan would have made it beyond reasonable doubt that an agreement was signed, and they can reconstruct this agreement, then the court could, quite rightly, rule that the debt is owed.

Not true. I think the recent cases have proved as such. As you are fully aware, case law changes with each case and as a result we will revert to the most recent relevant case at the time of going to court.

You'll find lack of original agreement will result in the debt being unenforceable and if taken to court and won, there is no recourse for enforceability at a later date because at the time of court it was not provided (CPR 31.16) thus meaning the disclosure (or failure of) would stand firm.

Unenforceability and in particular the element you refer to is explicit in that if a CCA can be found at a later date the debt can become re-enforced. This is excluded if you take legal action using CPR 31.16 as to gain judgement would mean the lender has failed with a legal request to disclose. It cannot be disclosed and used in any evidence at a later date.

~Brock~ · 19 September 2009 at 2:28PM

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Not true. I think the recent cases have proved as such. As you are fully aware, case law changes with each case and as a result we will revert to the most recent relevant case at the time of going to court.

You'll find lack of original agreement will result in the debt being unenforceable and if taken to court and won, there is no recourse for enforceability at a later date because at the time of court it was not provided (CPR 31.16) thus meaning the disclosure (or failure of) would stand firm.

Unenforceability and in particular the element you refer to is explicit in that if a CCA can be found at a later date the debt can become re-enforced. This is excluded if you take legal action using CPR 31.16 as to gain judgement would mean the lender has failed with a legal request to disclose. It cannot be disclosed and used in any evidence at a later date.

Under s61 and s65(1) if there is no original agreement then it can still be enforced with a court order, providing the lender can prove the likelyhood of one being signed originally, as I stated before.

s127(3) would not necessarily apply in the above scenario.

You can argue until the cows come home but I'm happy to wait for official guidance that confirms my point. When it arrives I will remind you of this thread!

never-in-doubt · 19 September 2009 at 5:04PM

~Brock~ wrote: »

Under s61 and s65(1) if there is no original agreement then it can still be enforced with a court order, providing the lender can prove the likelyhood of one being signed originally, as I stated before.

s127(3) would not necessarily apply in the above scenario.

You can argue until the cows come home but I'm happy to wait for official guidance that confirms my point. When it arrives I will remind you of this thread!

But in the following context, then it would not be enforced. Yet again we're going round the same tree with the same outcome....

(Have a read here..... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200203/ldjudgmt/jd030710/will-1.htm)

The agreement must be properly signed, along with a date of signature, by both parties;

1983/1553;
(3) The signature of the said document shall be made in the following manner-

(a) by the debtor or hirer, or by or on behalf of the debtor or hirer in the case of a partnership or an unincorporated body of persons, in the space in the document indicated for the purpose, and, subject to subparagraph (e) below, the date of the signature shall be inserted in the space in the document indicated for the purpose;

(b) by the creditor or owner, or by a person on his behalf, outside any signature box in which the debtor or hirer may sign and, subject to sub-paragraph (e) below, the date of the signature shall be inserted outside any such signature box”

So in theory, this would mean any application for an Enforcement Order under s.65(1) of the Act, as a result of the improper execution under the Act, would be dismissed under s.127(1)(i) usually;

a) Due to the prejudice caused;

- The account has been improperly and unlawfully defaulted and terminated; (s.88/s.98 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1993);

- The improper default and termination has effected (and continues to effect) your reputation and credit rating held by credit reference agencies;

- The lenders failure to reply to, or to unconditionally comply with, a Statutory Notice pursuant to s.10 and s.12 of the Data Protection Act 1998, requiring it to remove this information from its own records and to cease from continuing to process or share that information

b) Disputing the balance of the account

never-in-doubt · 19 September 2009 at 5:08PM

gizmo111 wrote: »

the point is it is still legally owed just not enforceable without an agreement, not as stated above.

Yes it would be owed but without a signature or original agreement then you could class it as being written off on the basis the lender can never provide the agreement, you then pursue removal of default due to no agreement and you'll win!

poker-playa · 20 September 2009 at 1:23AM

HouseHuntr wrote: »

Your arrogance is overwhelming in thinking that you're far superior to everyone else around here !

But he is far superior than you!

shocking · 20 September 2009 at 12:37PM

Hi - is there an "unenforcable credit agreements for dummies" thread where I can read teh actual story without the posturing. I'm not interested in the "pay your debts" bank backed scare mongering - I just want to see the argument for and against. I've seen the letter templates but want a bit of background. Especially regarding balance transfers onto the card post 2007.

Thanks.

never-in-doubt · 20 September 2009 at 1:03PM

shocking wrote: »

Hi - is there an "unenforcable credit agreements for dummies" thread where I can read teh actual story without the posturing. I'm not interested in the "pay your debts" bank backed scare mongering - I just want to see the argument for and against. I've seen the letter templates but want a bit of background. Especially regarding balance transfers onto the card post 2007.

Thanks.

No - there is no dummies guide. You either read and learn the Consumer Credit Act 1974 or read the letters from the templates thread which spells out the process. Regards to Post 04/07 you'll be wasting your time trying for unenforceability as s.127 (CCA1974) was repealed. However in exceptional circumstances and with a good consumer credit lawyer you may be able to fight post 04/07 agreements on a different technicality to that of s.127.

If you mean that you moved a balance to a card post 04/07 this wouldn't matter - it is the date the agreement was issued that refers to pre 04/07 - not what is spent on the card.

JLHE · 22 September 2009 at 10:35AM

Why don't you contribute to the debate instead of getting your dad to do it?[/QUOTE]

I didn't post to start a debate Brock - I asked for advice, which is kindly being supplied by some here and it's obvious who they are. The remainder resort to childish insults and 'debate' as you put it. And you do 'debate', but unfortunately lose it completely when never-in-doubt wipes the floor with you. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

never-in-doubt · 22 September 2009 at 10:59AM

JLHE wrote: »

I didn't post to start a debate Brock - I asked for advice,

Brock makes a habit of trying to get technical but I suspect he just uses Google a lot and has never been in a situation whereby he has fought and won. Therefore, its a losing battle because i've actually been there, had 31 defaults removed of my own and several for other people.

I guess, as they say, actions speak louder than words. :rotfl:

Credit Card Agreement - Request and Dispute

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