Crunch time for council workers’ golden pensions

donaldtramp wrote: »

CarolT,

Is it - by implication - that you think these jobs should all be privatised?

No, I think half of these jobs shouldn't even exist in the first place. We now have a public sector workforce that compares with Eastern Europe before the wall came down.
Brown has taxed and taxed and taxed and employed huge numbers of people in the public sector. We were doing OK before he went on this massive increase in Health and safety, government control and "tax credits" in which a huge proportion of the money is taken up in administration and the jobs created to administer them.

I actually agree with you on this bit - see my comments on tax credits elsewhere.

should remain in the public sector, but be paid less, and decent pensions removed?
DECENT PENSIONS? Have you read this thread? It should be robbing, thieving public sector pensions.
They should put their pension in the stock market and take the same risks as the rest of us. The government guarantee must (and it will;)) be taken away.

If it's the former, I'd like to hear how you perceive this working and where accountability would come from.
I refer you back to my answer in which I explain why the state must be cut right back. This socialist experiment has failed massively If you don't understand the difference between Socialist control governments and Conservative smaller state governance, look it up. I don't have time to educate you.

On the contrary, I am a socialist. So unlike you, I have no problem with state control. Feel free to argue with my politics, if you wish, rather than my understanding.

Why would a graduate with a good degree spend a further year training to be a teacher, for example, when they can earn vastly more in the private sector? How many doctors would bother working for the NHS? etc etc.

I'm sick of people using cuddly jobs like teachers, nurses etc etc to defend the WHOLE public sector.
I keep hearing from the teachers and others on here that they "do it to make a difference". If truly so, and they are not hiding from the nasty real world. Stop moaning about it. I don't really care either way.
Don't even bring doctors pay into this after the HUGE settlement Clown gave them. GPs get paid far too much.

Anyhoo, Don't worry about it. You're going to learn all about what is going to happen to the public sector over the coming decade. Whoever is in charge is going to be forced into giving them a massive kicking in employment terms, financial terms and pension arrangements.
Sit back and learn;)

I have no doubt that is true. And that it wil be a Tory govt.


You get what you pay for

No that's the whole problem. On the whole, OTHER people get what I PAY for.

Diddums.

I don't understand why you don't get a job in the public sector if you think it's so cushy?

Did you get turned down for a job in the public sector once, and have been nursing a grievance ever since? I just don't get the anger. Yes, some jobs pay more than others. If yours doesn't pay enough, get a better one.

End of problem.

carolt wrote: »

However, of the public sector workers I personally know, compared to the private sector ones (I'm a graduate in my mid-late 30's, if that helps, and all my friends are likewise), without exception, the private sector ones are higher paid - in some cases by far.

Actually, I lie - I can think of one friend, who after a mere 21 years of studying/working his way up the greasy pole, including stints of voluntary work, working overseas as there was no suitable work in the UK, etc, has finally been made a consultant (doctor). His pay is higher than one or two in the private sector. Not many, though. His pay is dwarfed by those of my friends who are accountants, lawyers, bankers, CEO's etc.

Clearly a little selective anecdotal evidence enables you to make profound judgements on the whole of the public vs private pay debate.

You didn't explain how the £45000ish pay package for bog standard teachers could be "vastly improved" in the private sector especially given that most professions require several years post grad training (as opposed to 1 year's classroom observation).

With supply and demand, if even a few hundred thousand teachers trained for jobs like solicitors, accountants, bankers etc, salaries would quickly come down.


Also, I reiterate, if the private sector pay is so great - why does the threat of outsourcing cause public sector staff so much grief ??

Old_Slaphead wrote: »

Clearly a little selective anecdotal evidence enables you to make profound judgements on the whole of the public vs private pay debate.

You didn't explain how the £45000ish pay package for bog standard teachers could be "vastly improved" in the private sector especially given that most professions require several years post grad training (as opposed to 1 year's classroom observation).

With supply and demand, if even a few hundred thousand teachers trained for jobs like solicitors, accountants, bankers etc, salaries would quickly come down.


Also, I reiterate, if the private sector pay is so great - why does the threat of outsourcing cause public sector staff so much grief ??

Apart from the small detail that 'bog standard' teachers don't earn anything like 45K, teachers require 1 year post-grad training, which is exactly the same as lawyers.

But:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/starting-salaries-for-city-lawyers-soar-to-pound60000-400918.html

makes clear that lawyers earned (in 2007, when these figures date from - feel free to find more recent ones) "In their first year, they can generally expect a wage of about £33,000, rising to £38,000 in their second year."

It would take a teacher about a decade at least to reach that same level. Incidentally, this compares very favourably to the public sector, even at starting point:

"By comparison, a junior doctor can expect a £20,741 starting annual salary, a newly qualified secondary-school teacher can expect £19,161, and an Army officer fresh out of training would be on £27,068."

But the real crunch comes later - after just a further 2 years, which is all it takes to qualify as a solicitor (no further exams to pass, just need to hang onto the job for 2 years), the same solicitors will enjoy a vastly higher salary than their public sector counterparts. See:

"Starting salaries for City lawyers have broken the £60,000 mark for the first time as demand for new talent soars, an analysis by a leading legal recruitment firm has found.
Newly qualified solicitors at London's top firms have seen salaries rise by 16 per cent in the past 12 months, with many now hitting £64,000 a year, according to the specialist legal recruitment company, Hughes-Castell. A decade ago, a newly qualified lawyer could have expected to earn £25,000 a year. But now they can earn double that through their basic wage, and many firms also top up the salaries with so-called "golden handcuffs" of more than £10,000 for their newest recruits when they sign up."


NB Couldn't be bothered to look up more recent figures, but I know the most recent figures are higher still.


So my point made I think. Imagine 2 identical graduates (please try and remember that teaching is a graduate job) - both leave university with identical degrees, one becomes a lawyer, one a teacher. From day 1, the lawyer will be earning over 50% more. From year 3, the difference is over 30 grand a year. And the gap between them just grows wider every year.

So whilst I'm trying really hard to feel sorry for all these underpaid lawyers cruelly being forced to subsidize the pay and pensions of teachers, I just can't.

I do feel sorry for their tedious jobs, long hours and the crushing office politics (I did work experience in a couple of solicitors' offices, but my urge to giggle was far too strong...).

But not their salaries!

It's by no means that hard to get a job as a lawyer or accountant - I know plenty of dim ones.

In fact,one of the stupidest people I've ever met was an accountant; he told me it took him 15 goes to pass his accountancy exams but presumably, eventually he struggled through. (Assume he didn't share that info with his clients.)

I know lots of exceptionally bright teachers.

In fact, I am one.