Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Nolongerconfused
    • By Nolongerconfused 16th Apr 19, 10:45 AM
    • 8Posts
    • 19Thanks
    Nolongerconfused
    Disabled Parking at Station SABA
    • #1
    • 16th Apr 19, 10:45 AM
    Disabled Parking at Station SABA 16th Apr 19 at 10:45 AM
    Thanks all all the useful info on this forum, but I really haven't been able to find answers to these specific issues:


    My disabled brother aged 65 received 3 parking tickets from a station car park run by SABA /Indigo in February and March 2019. He had had his disabled parking badge displayed on all three occasions, but had not noticed there were new regulations requiring registerng and phoning up when parking: he wasn't expecitng any changes, they are small, above his eye level (he has a stoop) and he doesn't have a smartphone to download the app.



    Because he is disabled, elderly, has some learning & memory issues and was alarmed by the threat of having to pay even more, he paid all three fines to a value of £185.85 and then handwrote an appeal.



    I have Lasting Power of Attorney over his affairs, but he did not tell me that he had received the fines, or that he had written to appeal (obviously this was turned down). I only found out at the end of last week when I saw his last bank statement with the three payments to an unknown company.(Two were taken on one day and sent his account into the red).



    My questions are:
    1. Given that he has already paid, and the fines relate to February / March 2019, is there any point me appealing? And to whom should I appeal (Saba / collection agency etc.) Morally I feel I should and I have excellent persistence, but the matter seems legally very complicated and once they have his money, SABA or PCN Admin will have little incentive to engage in this process.


    2. Given his difficulties, described above, could I cite the Equality Act (2010) saying that 'reasonable adjustments' were not made to the signage or payment process, to take account of his difficulties?


    3. Is the fact that I have Lasting Power of Attorney over his financial affairs, and didn't know what had occurred, going to give me any leverage over the fact that we are out of time to make an appeal?


    4. How could I used any existing forum templates to help with any recommended appeal, given that these fines have been paid?


    I would be extremely grateful for any help with this anyone can give, or even any suggestions on any disabled organisations which might be able to help, as I have drawn a blank locally. Apologies for any faults in the posting process, as I am a newbie; I am so angy about what has happened and have not asked for help in this way before.
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 16th Apr 19, 11:03 AM
    • 6,326 Posts
    • 8,276 Thanks
    waamo
    • #2
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:03 AM
    • #2
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:03 AM
    Indigo/Saba at railways are different in that they are penalty notices. Ignore it they can't do anything.
    This space for hire.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Apr 19, 11:10 AM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,666 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:10 AM
    • #3
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:10 AM
    he paid all three fines to a value of £185.85
    That just about seals his fate in terms of trying to pull anything back from SABA (aka Indigo). They will most certainly respond by saying the penalty (as they are termed by them) was legitimately applied and your brother accepted liability by paying.

    In most other cases, general run of the mill parking charges, I’d be saying, swallow it and learn from the experience, but this case is one of a particularly vulnerable person being preyed upon by venal predators.

    Recover any money is probably unlikely but you could make SABA’s life uncomfortable by enlisting the help of your MP and any disability groups specialising in the conditions your brother has.

    Also read this thread where some on has used an Equality and Human Rights Commission complaint template to hit a parking firm.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5987635

    Ultimately you could sue for your money by issuing an initial Letter Before Claim (costs you nothing), followed if you wish by a MCOL Claim which will cost just £25. Unless SABA defend the case you will win a judgment in default. They may decide that the effort and cost in defending is too much, and return your money.

    None of the above might work, but it does give SABA a bit of a kick!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Apr 19, 11:11 AM
    • 23,080 Posts
    • 36,666 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:11 AM
    • #4
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:11 AM
    Indigo/Saba at railways are different in that they are penalty notices. Ignore it they can't do anything.
    Originally posted by waamo
    The OP’s brother has already paid.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 16th Apr 19, 11:18 AM
    • 39,369 Posts
    • 87,853 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:18 AM
    • #5
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:18 AM
    Complain to your/your brother's MP. Contact local and national press.

    The only way I can think he will get his money back is to start a court claim, citing breach of the Equality Act 2010 as the scammers did not make reasonable adjustments for someone with protected characteristics in accordance with the act.

    Also complain to the landowner which may be Network Rail or the train operating company, again citing the EA 2010.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Castle
    • By Castle 16th Apr 19, 11:35 AM
    • 2,209 Posts
    • 2,998 Thanks
    Castle
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:35 AM
    • #6
    • 16th Apr 19, 11:35 AM

    The only way I can think he will get his money back is to start a court claim, citing breach of the Equality Act 2010 as the scammers did not make reasonable adjustments for someone with protected characteristics in accordance with the act.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Or
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/09/bargepole-assists-motorist-to-reclaim.html
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 17th Apr 19, 9:41 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 382 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    • #7
    • 17th Apr 19, 9:41 AM
    • #7
    • 17th Apr 19, 9:41 AM
    Just how low can these parking companies stoop? I think you should think about getting the press involved.

    I imagine that these weren’t windscreen tickets, since your brother was supposed to phone up and register, and it happened 3 times, I guess they were Notices to Owner, sent by post? A typical Indigo one looks like this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hMB-lrd6FdDrAhDM4TzTvhBLEw8yGEC9/view
    (see post 4 on this Pepipoo thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125339&hl=indigo )

    Were your brother’s ones the same? If so, the parking company are not only in breach of the Equality Act. What makes it even worse is the number of fraudulent assertions in the Notice to Owner which mis-led your brother into believing that he was legally obliged to pay up.

    He wasn’t. Nobody but the Court can impose a penalty for breach of the Byelaws - as confirmed by the DfT in this letter (bottom paragraph, first page): https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/311011/response/770331/attach/2/F0013227%20Follow%20Up%20Reply.pdf?cookie_passthro ugh=1

    It’s obvious when you think about it. Anyone accused of a criminal offence (which, anachronistically, parking in breach of the Railway Byelaws is) is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a criminal court. It’s the most fundamental principle of our criminal justice system: the famous “golden thread” (per Lord Sankey, Woolmington v DPP (1935) AC 462), enshrined in statute from Magna Carta through the Bill of Rights Act 1689 to the present day in Article 6, European Convention on Human Rights.

    But Indigo like to drive a coach and horses through all that. They assert that Byelaw 14(4)(i) entitles them to impose a penalty on an as-yet innocent person. Of course it doesn’t. How can it? They are saying, in effect:

    1. We accuse you of this offence;
    2. We find our accusation proved;
    3. We impose the following penalty and we’ll prosecute or clamp you if you don’t pay up;
    4. We get to keep the proceeds.
    And finally:
    5a) We will decide your appeal.
    b) A second-tier appeal may only be made to an appeal service selected by ourselves. And in case you are wondering: no, your appeal will not be decided in accordance with established law.

    Talk about a kangaroo court! But the Notices look so official, and people naturally expect a major train company (and its agents) to act within the law in every way – so it doesn’t even occur to people they could be fraudulent.

    In short: your brother was mis-led by the false assertions in the Notice to Owner - assuming it's the same as the one in the link. At the very least, he should be entitled to a full refund under the Consumer (Protection from Unfair Trading) Regs 2008 as amended. There is also the more serious matter of damages for fraud/deceit to consider - useful guidance given by Rix LJ in The Kriti Palm (2007) 1 Lloyd’s Rep 555 - see para 251 onwards - here: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2006/1601.html

    To defraud a vulnerable person is utterly despicable. I hope you can fight back. At least let them be shamed by the media.
    • Nolongerconfused
    • By Nolongerconfused 18th Apr 19, 5:54 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Nolongerconfused
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 19, 5:54 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Apr 19, 5:54 PM
    Many thanks to you all for your very helpful replies. I think I will go down the 'complaint' route, rather than wasting time trying to appeal, given the time which has passed. I feel there is little likelihood of my brother getting a refund, but I will be sending copies of the complaint to my MP and to Southern Rail, who own the site. If I can get the procedures and signage changed to make it more user friendly for other disabled and elderly people, that is probably the most I can hope to achieve.
    I wonder if anyone knows SABA's physical address, to which complaints can be addressed? They have an online email address, which I have used already, so far without a reply.

    Many thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 19, 5:58 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 19, 5:58 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Apr 19, 5:58 PM
    OMG someone paid.

    I feel there is little likelihood of my brother getting a refund
    Really, despite bargepole's success, and he posts here?

    Your complaint will be ignored. You should complain to the TOC (Train Operating Company) who contracted them.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Nolongerconfused
    • By Nolongerconfused 18th Apr 19, 6:02 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Nolongerconfused
    Reply to Queries
    Yes, my brother received the Penalty Notice by Post notices and I agree with everything you have said about the peremptory way in which this has been dealt with.

    His third letter saying his appeal had been rejected was even more astonishing:

    By law are required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (weblink) provides an alternative resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, the BPA has chosen not to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service'.

    Unbelievable!
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 18th Apr 19, 6:02 PM
    • 3,704 Posts
    • 4,644 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    £25 on a county court claim , I will GUARANTEE they will not want this to go to court
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 19, 6:11 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    By law are required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (weblink) provides an alternative resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, the BPA has chosen not to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service'.

    Unbelievable!
    No, that's normal and by law they are required to say that.

    I can't believe someone paid this x 3 before researching the scam.

    This is disability discrimination. I would sue the TOC for allowing this to happen:
    My disabled brother aged 65 received 3 parking tickets from a station car park run by SABA /Indigo in February and March 2019. He had had his disabled parking badge displayed on all three occasions, but had not noticed there were new regulations requiring registerng and phoning up when parking: he wasn't expecitng any changes, they are small, above his eye level (he has a stoop) and he doesn't have a smartphone to download the app.

    Because he is disabled, elderly, has some learning & memory issues and was alarmed by the threat of having to pay even more, he paid all three fines to a value of £185.85 and then handwrote an appeal.
    Do you fancy giving this a go? Suing the TOC?

    I would be happy to help you write a LBC for him and then a claim, to sue the TOC for his money back and a bit more for distress. I'm not legally qualified but know my stuff about this, and about the Equality Act from a previous job.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 18-04-2019 at 6:13 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 18th Apr 19, 6:21 PM
    • 3,704 Posts
    • 4,644 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    CM , was it the TOC , indigo or zzps that sent the threatening letter ?
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 19, 7:03 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It wasn't the TOC but the TOC are who to sue, as they will want it sorted.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 18th Apr 19, 7:16 PM
    • 3,704 Posts
    • 4,644 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    now we know non of them would like CCJ s on file , but the TOC are not going to get contracts or funding are they ?

    the others may at some point regret it** , especially zzps

    ** saba is not a UK company (as such)
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Apr 19, 8:13 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The TOC are the people to target as they are liable for their agent's conduct and will absolutely not want a disability discrimination case hanging over them.

    I reckon they would settle it and will not want a hearing over it. Costs the victim £35 or something (in fact the victim might even qualify for free court fees - the OP needs to Google 'help with court fees' and see the income levels for full fee remission!).

    NOTHING to lose.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Nolongerconfused
    • By Nolongerconfused 19th Apr 19, 5:47 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Nolongerconfused
    Suing the landowner
    Yes, I think I am going to take it up with the landowner, Southern Rail, especially as they have now given me a reference number. The more I look into this, the more convinced I am that this is a disability / vulnerable person issue and reasonable adjustments have not been made for those with basic phones, no online presence, or physical and mental issues. It is just not possible for my brother to use the newly set up system at the station with the phone he has. I have tried to do it today, via smartphone text and online, and I couldn't do it either, so what chance has he got? Many thanks for your input.
    • Nolongerconfused
    • By Nolongerconfused 19th Apr 19, 6:03 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Nolongerconfused
    Complaint to TOC
    Yes, I am going to complain first. But if that doesn't work I would be very grateful for some assistance in taking them to court, especially as their website rather gives the impression that they are dedicated to helping the disabled and elderly. They apparently 'take it very seriously'!
    Many, many thanks for all the help and advice. I will post any outcomes here in due course, though I suspect there is a long road ahead.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Apr 19, 6:21 PM
    • 12,660 Posts
    • 12,888 Thanks
    The Deep
    Have you contacted your brother's MP.

    On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Apr 19, 6:28 PM
    • 70,394 Posts
    • 82,985 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, I am going to complain first. But if that doesn't work I would be very grateful for some assistance in taking them to court, especially as their website rather gives the impression that they are dedicated to helping the disabled and elderly.

    They apparently 'take it very seriously'!
    Many, many thanks for all the help and advice. I will post any outcomes here in due course, though I suspect there is a long road ahead.
    Originally posted by Nolongerconfused
    We will be happy to help you write a LBC, which we hope will make them settle.

    If not, we are also happy to help you get him to sue Southern Rail for this loss and distress, as they remain liable.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

399Posts Today

5,377Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Have a great Easter, or a chag sameach to those like me attending Passover seder tomorrow. I?m taking all of next? https://t.co/qrAFTIpqWl

  • RT @rowlyc1980: A whopping 18 days off work for only 9 days leave! I?ll have a bit of that please......thanks @MartinSLewis for your crafty?

  • RT @dinokyp: That feeling when you realise that you have 18 days of work and only used 9 days of your annual leave! Thanks @MartinSLewis h?

  • Follow Martin