Bulb/Coop £200 backbill puzzle ...

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May-B
May-B Posts: 39 Forumite
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in Energy
Hello,



I'm hoping someone might be able to advise me on if/how I might claim some of the £200+ that Bulb has just back billed me for an error that I'm not sure is my fault. This is quite complicated - so, if you like puzzles?! .... I would really appreciate your advice.


After I moved into my current flat I immediately arranged to switch energy supplier from Coop to Bulb in October of 2017, the switch was complete by the end of November 2017. I then switched from Bulb to another cheaper supplier just before Christmas 2018. When I arranged the latest switch I was £200 in credit on my account. Bulb took forever to send me the final bill and when they did they'd suddenly deducted the entire credit and billed me an additional £17.20 - no explanation given! I messaged them and received the reply which I've pasted below. Bulb seem to be saying that I gave them the wrong meter reading when I joined. Their message explains what they did after I originally (apparently) gave them the wrong meter reading. I'm pretty confused on a number of points - 1. what do they mean by 'sent it off for vaidation?' who 'told them' to use the original reading? Why were they in touch with Coop about this? Why wasn't I told about this until now? And finally, I sent them photographs of my meter on more than one occasion at their request ... at least one was at the beginning of my contract. I don't see what more I could have done to provide an accurate reading.


I'm not convinced I haven't been cut short here unfairly but I can't work out how to check.



Here is the message from Bulb:



Thanks for getting in touch and we're very sorry that you have not had a good experience.

To explain what has happened here, when we took over your supply, you gave us a reading that was one too many digits and so when we sent it off for validation as per regulation, it failed this and both us and the Co-op were instructed to use a different reading.

We raised a dispute with the Co-op to get this amended, however, they have rejected this as they said it falls in line with the readings they had on your account with them.

If we were to resolve this dispute, which the Co-op has already said they will not, it will just mean that they will revise your final statement with them and they will ask for more money from you to close your account with them again.

Due to the stance of your old supplier, we are unable to change the opening read on your account and therefore have to bill you for the usage that we have done. The outstanding balance of £17.20 is correct and will need to be paid to close down the account.

Please take this email as our acknowledgement of your complaint and as our explanation for your account. If you disagree with what has been said or would like to take the complaint further, please let me know how you believe this should be resolved.

Comments

  • molerat
    molerat Posts: 31,875 Forumite
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    edited 25 January 2019 at 8:34PM
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    When you change suppliers you give the changeover reading to your new supplier. It is then passed to an industry verifier who checks its validity and either agrees with it or makes an assessed reading and passes that read to both the old and new suppliers to use. The old supplier should ignore any reading you give to them, they must use the industry verified read. As long as both suppliers use the same reading to open and close the accounts there is little you can do, did they both use the same reading ? Was the Bulb £200 credit shown immediately after an accurately supplied meter read ?
  • Carrot007
    Carrot007 Posts: 4,534 Forumite
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    All meter reads are validated to see it they are within an acceptable range of the previous read given your (or your home profiles) expected usage. Reads are not just accepted. Imagine the chaos that would cause/



    Of course if they had been getting wrong reads for a long time then real reads would fail.


    Maybe post the link to the photo of your opening read and what you tohught it was for us to check and also what they say it is.


    Or course the previous occupant could have given a wrong final read (and every read). So who knows.


    It is often hard to deal with people at companies do go to the online complaints team who might have half a clue. Most operators you call have no idea if a read and usage pattern is even feasable.


    The more reads over time you post here (opening/ending and what they say these are and any others) the better view on what is going on you will get. Photos to double check are obviously welcome too. Meter even the meter make/model to see if it is one that often has issues.
  • Carrot007
    Carrot007 Posts: 4,534 Forumite
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    molerat wrote: »
    When you change suppliers you give the changeover reading to your new supplier. It is then passed to an industry verifier who checks its validity and either agrees with it or makes an assessed reading and passes that read to both the old and new suppliers to use. The old supplier should ignore any reading you give to them, they must use the industry verified read. As long as both suppliers use the same reading to open and close the accounts there is little you can do, did they both use the same reading ? Was the Bulb £200 credit shown immediately after an accurately supplied meter read ?


    Technically the old supplier (and their agent) is resonsible for the validation of the final read.


    Giving it to the new supplier is only a recent thing and all they do with it is give it to the old supplier.


    The new supplier is not is any position to validate anything as they do not have the history.


    It's an odd situation. if your old supplier does not have the final read you new supplier is to blame.
  • May-B
    May-B Posts: 39 Forumite
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    [FONT=&quot]Thanks everyone. Your comments make sense ... and I know I'm being thick but I'm still trying to get my head around what has happened with my bill and the disagreement Bulb are saying they have had with the previous supplier - I can also see there is something strange goings on with the readings perhaps ...if you would like the challenge I'd still appreciate any thoughts (from someone better with numbers than me!).
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I have a copy of the final bill from Coop energy as recevied by my landlady. I don't think I had any contact with coop as I switched to Bulb immediately. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Closing readings from Coop [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15th Oct 2017 - 44114.0 (customer read, not me as hadn't moved in) - 27th Nov 2017 - 44228.0 (meter reader)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15th Oct 2017 - 4225.0 (C - again not me) - 27th Nov 2017 - 4321.5 (Est) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]27th Nov 2017 - 4321.5 (E) - 15th Dec 2017 4321.5 (M) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Bulb - opening reading [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity 28th Nov 2017 - 44228 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas 16th Dec 2017 - 44291 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I did send photographs of my gas and electricity metre to Bulb in November of 2017 because they said they needed the serial number of my gas meter and I could not find the correct number. In those images it clearly shows the meter readings for each (I'm not saying this would have been handed over to the team registering readings but it is evidence of the meter readings at that time): [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]November 2017:
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity: 44228[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas: 4323.5
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I provided four-meter readings over the year for electricity and for gas. On the Bulb website only the actual and estimated meter readings for electricity are visible, although I have been charged for Gas during this time. No estimate or actual readings for Gas are shown. On the bills I can now clearly see that they haven’t made a note of my gas meter readings. For example - August 2nd 2018 electricity meter reading 44929 but no gas reading although I would have sent both. The first gas reading that is registered was taken by someone who came to my door to check the meter at the end of Nov 2018 and took the reading as 5142.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The £200 credit built up over the year and I didn’t question it, I just reduced my direct debit a little assuming I was using less energy than predicted.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]... if this is owed, ok, ... although it is a large amount of money to be expecting back and suddenly lose esp. as I'm struggling financially at the moment.
    [/FONT]
  • Carrot007
    Carrot007 Posts: 4,534 Forumite
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    May-B wrote: »
    [FONT=&quot]I provided four-meter readings over the year for electricity and for gas. On the Bulb website only the actual and estimated meter readings for electricity are visible, although I have been charged for Gas during this time. No estimate or actual readings for Gas are shown. On the bills I can now clearly see that they haven’t made a note of my gas meter readings. For example - August 2nd 2018 electricity meter reading 44929 but no gas reading although I would have sent both. The first gas reading that is registered was taken by someone who came to my door to check the meter at the end of Nov 2018 and took the reading as 5142.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The £200 credit built up over the year and I didn’t question it, I just reduced my direct debit a little assuming I was using less energy than predicted.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]... if this is owed, ok, ... although it is a large amount of money to be expecting back and suddenly lose esp. as I'm struggling financially at the moment.
    [/FONT]


    Hard to follow this late. but there were estimates in there and you seem to have set the DD to the minimum allowed.


    I tend to do this too. However I am under no illusion and have just moved supplier and had a £217 bill. I expected it. In fact it was £3 cheaper but they ignored my final gas read and estimated one slightly lower! (Cannot do anything as it is within the allowed levels).


    If you constantly go online and set the DD to the minimum they will allow without paying them a one off then you are going to end up owing them. I do it becuase I like to keep my money as long as possible. And I would have been OK if my old supplier did not suddenly become very expensive compared to the rest (and a bit useless online so I thought OK let's move!)


    As to your gas no reading point. If they do not validate they will not be shown. As well as sending reads, and I say once a month is best, or get a smart meter if you cannot be bothered, you need to check they are going onto your account. Many suppliers do a rough validation when submitting and will not accept odd ones. However not all do.


    At the end of the day it is easier for you to help out and it will not cause you any harm! Well unless you want to pay lower for a while, but it always catches up with you.
  • oldwiring
    oldwiring Posts: 2,452 Forumite
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    May-B wrote: »
    [FONT=&quot]Thanks everyone. Your comments make sense ... and I know I'm being thick but I'm still trying to get my head around what has happened with my bill and the disagreement Bulb are saying they have had with the previous supplier - I can also see there is something strange goings on with the readings perhaps ...if you would like the challenge I'd still appreciate any thoughts (from someone better with numbers than me!).
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I have a copy of the final bill from Coop energy as recevied by my landlady. I don't think I had any contact with coop as I switched to Bulb immediately. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Closing readings from Coop [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15th Oct 2017 - 44114.0 (customer read, not me as hadn't moved in) - 27th Nov 2017 - 44228.0 (meter reader)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15th Oct 2017 - 4225.0 (C - again not me) - 27th Nov 2017 - 4321.5 (Est) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]27th Nov 2017 - 4321.5 (E) - 15th Dec 2017 4321.5 (M) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Bulb - opening reading [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity 28th Nov 2017 - 44228 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas 16th Dec 2017 - 44291 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I did send photographs of my gas and electricity metre to Bulb in November of 2017 because they said they needed the serial number of my gas meter and I could not find the correct number. In those images it clearly shows the meter readings for each (I'm not saying this would have been handed over to the team registering readings but it is evidence of the meter readings at that time): [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]November 2017:
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Electricity: 44228[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Gas: 4323.5
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I provided four-meter readings over the year for electricity and for gas. On the Bulb website only the actual and estimated meter readings for electricity are visible, although I have been charged for Gas during this time. No estimate or actual readings for Gas are shown. On the bills I can now clearly see that they haven’t made a note of my gas meter readings. For example - August 2nd 2018 electricity meter reading 44929 but no gas reading although I would have sent both. The first gas reading that is registered was taken by someone who came to my door to check the meter at the end of Nov 2018 and took the reading as 5142.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The £200 credit built up over the year and I didn’t question it, I just reduced my direct debit a little assuming I was using less energy than predicted.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]... if this is owed, ok, ... although it is a large amount of money to be expecting back and suddenly lose esp. as I'm struggling financially at the moment.
    [/FONT]

    The 16/12/17 gas reading I have hi-lited is clearly incorrect, seing all the others are 4 digits and a fraction. Could you have failed to insert the decimal point here or in your submission to the company; also maybe mis-keying the second digit as 4 instead of 3 of the 15/12/17 reading?
  • May-B
    May-B Posts: 39 Forumite
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    Thanks all,



    Carrot, the £200 credit built up over a year because I didn't lower the direct debit amount to its absolute minimum. I should have provided more meter readings (I provided every quarter ... I'm definitely now going to do this every month!) and looked at my bill more closely and asked why they were not validating any gas meter readings. If the money is due then ok (although I wish it was not up to me to spot the error). Ultimately, the issue seems to be this dispute Bulb had with Coop about the original reading. It seems that as a result of the dispute, I think, Bulb did not verify any gas meter readings for the entire year. I feel I need to understand what this dispute was about and why I haven't found out about it until now. I've gone back to Bulb and asked them to send me more details about this initial problem.



    Old wiring, yes, definitely possible - if I was the one who sent this reading ... although my eyesight is not normally that bad! .. although, given that it was clearly an odd reading ... why not just ask me for another?
  • Thomas_Edison
    Thomas_Edison Posts: 148 Forumite
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    Hey,

    The quick check is that your start readings with one supplier should match the end readings with the other.

    So for Elec Co-op stopped on 44228 and Bulb started on 44228 so that's definitely right.

    You mention the read of 44291 as the start reading for the gas with Bulb to me this looks like you may have given them your electricity reading.

    This wouldn't have passed validation and Bulb and co-op would have been provided an estimate of 4321.5.

    Co-op then use this as your closing read and Bulb your starting read.

    As the read of 4321.5 was estimated, your actual read which I don't see above may have been for example 4500 and Bulb wanted to correct the switch read to this.

    However as it's within a set tolerance 250kwh of the estimate co-op don't have to accept this which is why it wasn't agreed and co-op said the estimate was in line.

    It really makes no difference though as Bulb says, if it was changed you'd pay for 179.5 kWh less with Bulb, but 179.5 kwh more with co-op

    Hope that helps
  • molerat
    molerat Posts: 31,875 Forumite
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    I have a copy of the final bill from Coop energy as recevied by my landlady. I don't think I had any contact with coop as I switched to Bulb immediately.
    I suspect this is where it all started to go wrong !
  • oldwiring
    oldwiring Posts: 2,452 Forumite
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    8 May-B This is just in passing, no more. The cost difference in my area i(Southern) for 4429[STRIKE]1[/STRIKE] less 4321=108 units=~3470 kWH; in money £140.
This discussion has been closed.
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