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LBC from BWLegal for Britannia PCN - part 2 of 2

Hi all, (for those who read part 1, the only new part here is the POPLA assessment)

I'm in possession of 2 LBCs from BWLegal after receiving two separate parking 'fines' for two consecutive days in June. The Driver of the vehicle had just started her new job and had genuinely missed a sign at the entrance of the 4-storey car park in the middle of a retail park thinking it would be free. She missed the sign because just before the entrance (and exit) of the car park, a pedestrian path crosses the entry path so it's a rather dangerous place to be looking anywhere other than nearby for crossing pedestrians. There are also few signs on the floor where she parked (1 small one to be precise).

The driver still parks in this car park on occasion and now pays regularly as she obviously now knows it's a paid for car park!

I have been advised to post a separate thread for each LBC, so will start with the first one:

I appealed to POPLA on the following grounds, with the main one being insufficient signage:

- NtK was never served
- failure to prove keeper liability
- lack of standing or authority
- inadequate signage
- ANPR unreliable

Following Britannia's lodging of documents in the portal (including a redacted witness statement on Britannia letterhead supposedly proving standing or authority!), I also added pictures which show very inadequate signage (small letters, just a small sign on the first floor) and I also added pictures of the dangerous entry and exit where the main entrance sign is affixed that the assessor refers to as being satisfactory. In my rebuttal, I re-iterated my case that the pictures show there is inadequate signage in general, and I particularly objected to the proof of authority supplied by Britannia which was a heavily redacted, scrappy piece of paper called a 'Witness Statement' on Britannia headed paper.

As you will see below, these points were ignored (as in, not even mentioned in the decision). Despite my rebuttal, the assessor seems to lay the burden of proof with me when it comes to ANPR and even suggests that I should prove Britannia do not have standing or authority, which is interesting I guess for future reference.

I have sent a SAR to Britannia now I have the LBC, and an email to BW Legal to put the case on hold and to stop harassing me (like with everyone else, they are calling, texting and emailing me at ALL hours of the day). Other than that, I am just sitting tight until I receive the actual court claim. The letter has given me til the end of Jan to respond. My LBC was not compliant (did not follow all practice direction points) but I have not yet responded to that - it can be part of my defence once I come to write it? I am not on MCOL yet but I will do this as soon as I have the Court Claim.

Advice on my defence would be helpful although to my newbie eyes it looks like the only one I can win on is the poor signage (and that is my genuine defence!) I don't see how the driver would have been able to read all the information on the signs that Britannia submitted PLUS their photos were all close-ups whereas mine showed that the signs they have up could in no reasonable way have been legible from all angles of the carpark.

In addition, BWLegal have done the usual of adding £60 to the 'fine', which I also intend to reference. I'll update this thread when the letter arrives or if anyone has any advice in the meantime of course!

Unsuccessful decision below:

The Assessor has considered the evidence provided by both parties and has determined that the Appeal be Refused. In order to avoid any further action by the Operator, payment of the parking charge should be made within 28 days.]

The Assessor’s summary of the operator’s case: The parking operator issued a parking charge notice for failed to make valid payment.

The Assessor’s summary of the appellant’s case: The appellant has raised several grounds of appeal as follows: 1) a compliant Notice to Keeper (NTK) was never served - no keeper liability can apply; 2) the operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge; 3) the operator has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue tickets and pursue charges in their own name at court; 4) the signs in this car park are not clear, legible or prominent from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself; and 5) the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) camera system is unreliable and inaccurate.

In their comments to POPLA the appellant reiterates their version of events for the day in question. Reasons for the Assessor’s determination: I am satisfied that the appellant was the driver of the vehicle on the day of the contravention. I will therefore be considering her liability as driver of the vehicle. The terms and conditions at the site state “Pay on arrival… Restrictions and charges apply Monday – Sunday 24 hours a day… up to 1 hour £0.60… up to 3 hours £1.20… All day £3.50… Please enter full and correct vehicle registration into the payment machine when paying the tariff… A £100 parking charge notice may be issued to all vehicles which: Fail to purchase a valid ticket, voucher or permit.” In this instance the parking operator has issued a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) as it alleges the motorist has failed to make a valid payment.

The operator has provided copies of its signage, including a site map. Further, the operator has provided photographs from its Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras situated at the entrance and exit points. These captured the vehicle details of EN57VUS entering the site at 11:30:00 and exited the site at 18:20:01. The parking operator has issued a PCN to the registered keeper of the vehicle after the DVLA returned the keeper details.

The appellant has raised several grounds of appeal as follows: 1) a compliant Notice to Keeper (NTK) was never served - no keeper liability can apply; 2) the operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge; 3) the operator has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue tickets and pursue charges in their own name at court; 4) the signs in this car park are not clear, legible or prominent from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself; and 5) the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) camera system is unreliable and inaccurate. In their comments to POPLA the appellant reiterates their version of events for the day in question. The appellant states the NTK is not compliant and therefore no liability can apply. The parking operator has not shown that the individual it is pursuing is in fact the driver. I note that when the parking operator requested the details of the registered keeper of the vehicle, the DVLA returned the details the appellant is acting on behalf of.

As such, I believe that the parking operator was correct to issue the PCN to the registered keeper of the vehicle given the DVLA named her as the registered keeper at the time. I have reviewed the Notice to Keeper sent by the operator to the keeper of the vehicle. I have reviewed all of paragraph 9 in PoFA and the requirement of the Notice to Keeper and I am satisfied that the parking operator has met all of the requirements. As such this entitles it to pursue the registered keeper of the vehicle for unpaid parking charges in the event it does not receive the full details of the driver within the period specified.

The appellant states the operator has a lack of standing or authority from the landowner to issue tickets and pursue charges in their own name at court. The operator has produced a witness statement to prove they can operate on the land. I am satisfied this meets the criteria to show it has the authority to operate on this land. An operator does not need to provide a full contract due to this containing commercially sensitive information. I am satisfied that the witness statement provided by the operator meets the requirements of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice.

The appellant states the signs in this car park are not clear, legible or prominent from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself. For this reason, I will consider whether the operator has provided evidence to satisfy the requirements of section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice in order to consider it meets the requirements of section 21 of the BPA Code of Practice. Section 18.1 states “in all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.” Having considered the evidence provided, I am satisfied that the operator had installed a suitable entrance sign at this location and this was sufficient to make motorists aware that the parking is managed on this particular piece of land.

Section 18.2 stipulates that, “Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of.” Furthermore, within Section 18.3, it states that: “Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.”

Having considered the signage in place, I am satisfied that the operator has installed a number of signs throughout the car park and these are sufficient to bring the specific terms and conditions to the motorists’ attention. In my view, these are “conspicuous”, “legible and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car park, the driver should have reviewed the terms and conditions before deciding to park.

The appellant states the ANPR camera system is unreliable and inaccurate. The BPA Code of Practice contains guidelines for the use of ANPR cameras within Section 21. The parking operator states it fully complies with this. In relation to Section 21.1 the parking operator uses ANPR cameras in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. All signage contains the universally recognised symbol for the use of these cameras and it is made clear that ANPR technology is in use on site.

As already stated I am satisfied with the parking operator’s signage at the site and therefore satisfied they have complied with Section 21.1. I acknowledge the appellant’s request stating they want proof of the ANPR quality check relating to the date the PCN was issued to the registered keeper. However as there is no evidence to dispute the accuracy of the ANPR I must work on the basis that it is fully accurate. ANPR cameras are used to capture images of vehicles when they enter and exit a site. This then calculates the length of the vehicle’s stay.

Unless sufficient evidence can be given to dispute that a vehicle was not onsite for the recorded time, this is deemed a reliable way to monitor a vehicle’s stay. As such, photographs of a parked vehicle are not necessary. POPLA is evidence based and can only assess an appeal based on the evidence presented by both parties. The evidence supplied by the appellant in relation to this appeal is insufficient to disprove that provided by the operator.

The parking operator has provided specific evidence documenting the vehicle entering and leaving at these times while the appellant has been unable to provide any evidence, which would cast doubt on the legitimacy of these images. In addition, it has shown that there is no payment registered against the appellant’s vehicle on the day in question and nor as the appellant stated they made payment. As such the appellant is parked in breach of the terms and conditions of the parking operator, thereby agreeing to the parking charge they have now received.

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that when they enter a car park, they have understood the terms and conditions of parking. If a motorist is in disagreement with the terms and conditions offered or feels that the terms and conditions cannot be complied with, there would be sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. By remaining parked on site, the appellant accepted the terms and conditions offered. After considering the evidence from both parties, I am satisfied the parking charge notice has been issued correctly. Therefore, this appeal must be refused.. Accordingly, the Appeal is Refused.
«1

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 160,746 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    now I have the LBC, and an email to BW Legal to put the case on hold and to stop harassing me (like with everyone else, they are calling, texting and emailing me at ALL hours of the day). Other than that, I am just sitting tight until I receive the actual court claim. The letter has given me til the end of Jan to respond.
    I agree that your defence will turn on the matter of unclear signs, as I can't see much else and Britannia do use POFA wording nowadays.

    You should respond to the LBC if you haven't already, and state the signage was not clear and that a POPLA Assessor's opinion is subjective and not based on the facts of the signs as they are positioned at the location which appears to be a cash cow site, with the PDT machines in a corner out of sight...etc.

    Then bring on the claim!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hi Coupon-mad, unfortunately I had already emailed BWLegal the below, which did not contain the POPLA reference or the signage reference. Should I send another one? I kept it simple (maybe too simple:)

    Dear Sir, Madam,

    I am writing to inform you that I have sent your client, Britannia, a SAR today. I therefore require a restriction of data processing and both cases, xxxxx and xxxxx, should be put on hold.

    My address is:
    xxxx

    Any future correspondence with me must be done through the post - please stop with your campaign of harassment about a non existent account, debt or statement via text messages, telephone calls and emails which are arriving almost daily both during working hours and evening hours. I will also be complaining about your conduct to my MP, as well as the SRA and the ICO.

    Sincerely,

    xxxxx

    In the meantime, I haven't heard back from BWLegal and I have blocked their number, but they are still texting me.

    Britannia have also responded to my SAR just under a week ago, the content of which is unsurprising I guess:

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    We have received your Subject Access Request, under ICO guidelines we have one calendar month to respond.

    Please be aware we will send a copy of all personal data we hold only. If you have made a request for any additional information which does not qualify as personal data, please see below.

    YOU’RE [SIC!] REQUEST FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

    Landowner agreement - You are not entitled to business sensitive information, it will only be supplied at court, as evidence and not before.

    Contract with the driver - The contract is on the signage in the car park. A copy of the signage will be provided as evidence at court.

    Machine reports - You are not entitled to transactions which do not relate to you, you will be provided with your transaction only. We are under no obligation to provide you with anything further.

    Picture packs - A copy of the signage will be provided as evidence at court.

    Your SAR request is free, however please be aware we are able to charge for additional copies and any requests for information we consider to be manifestly unfounded or excessive. ICO guidelines advise we are able to charge a reasonable administration fee, which is £10.

    Please send a cheque payable to Britannia Parking to the following address: Data Protection Officer, County Gates House, 7th Floor, 300 Poole Road, Poole, BH12 1AZ.

    Include a list of the additional information you require and the PCN number/s. Once the cheque has cleared we will action your request. We will only send additional information which is not business sensitive.

    Please refer to the ICO website for further information: LINK

    If you do not wish to pay £10, we are under no obligation to provide you with the information, your only options is to wait until this matter progresses to court, when it will be adduced as evidence.

    Once you are in receipt of your SAR, all additional correspondence regarding the request for additional information will not be responded to, unless payment of £10 is received.


    clearly I won't be sending any cheques! Anyway, I thought I would update here, nothing else to do I guess (except maybe write another note to BWLegal to complain that they are still harassing me and to add in the reference you quote Coupon-Mad) until the actual claim arrives.

    I'll paste this reply in my other post too for posterity.

    Thanks for the on-going support!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 160,746 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ''Contract with the driver - The contract is on the signage in the car park. A copy of the signage will be provided as evidence at court.
    Picture packs - A copy of the signage will be provided as evidence at court.''
    Reply and point out the PAP for debt claims requires a Claimant to supply a copy of the contract, which you know they have in the form of photos of the signs. Since BW Legal are a firm of roboclaim solicitors (call them that, I would!) their first duty is the the court, thus they cannot feign ignorance of the Practice Direction and PAP, and deny a consumer their client's photos of the signs that existed at the material date.
    Machine reports - You are not entitled to transactions which do not relate to you, you will be provided with your transaction only. We are under no obligation to provide you with anything further.
    Show it then, and this must be the actual machine record from that date/time, not a mock up version. Other VRNs may be covered but it is vital to see the true & original machine record, not what their client transcribes into a reply.
    YOU’RE [SIC!]
    LOL, you MUST bring this in/quote it at them, and signpost them to an online dictionary maybe, to laugh at them at the end!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hi Coupon-Mad, reply sent. I hope this is all not too slow, I work full time and only really have time at the weekends to focus on this. I'm just cross-posting the latest instalment in the BWLegal - Britannia saga which I have also posted on my part 1 post. I think I know what to do now based on the Newbies sticky, but thought I would update here for posterity:

    The situation gets more complicated now because THE DAY AFTER the date on two separate letters from BWLegal acknowledging my contact preference request, I received an email stating 'Notice of County Court Claim Issued' which coincides with a County Court Claim that arrived earlier this week. I obviously presumed they had pressed ahead with one of the two claims that this original post refers to, but this is a NEW claim for which I have not received any communications and which dates to a day that the driver of my car parked in the same car park in September!

    So now we have:
    A. - 2 PCN claims with Britannia, through BWLegal, dating from June, currently on hold whilst I await the outcome of my SAR and acknowledged by BWLegal. (the SAR included a request to give me all and any other PCNs they intend to claim for)
    B. - 1 brand new County Court Claim out of the blue for the same car park, dating from September, for which I have received no previous communication at all apart from an email (despite cease and desist request) a day after receiving the claim called Notice of County Court Claim issued and today - a letter dating back to earlier this week with roughly the same content.

    With regards to A. I am going to hold apart from complaining to the FCA. Nothing to do there until the actual SAR info and court claim arrives.
    With regards to B. I will now obviously need to do an AoS so am registering for an MCOL and will then revert to this thread with my reply.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 41,296 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    This now getting silly.

    I can no longer remember why there are two threads - part 1 and part 2.

    It gets even more ridiculous now that you are posting the same thing on both threads.

    I'll have to leave you to it.
  • FedUpofBWLegal
    FedUpofBWLegal Posts: 28 Forumite
    edited 26 January 2019 at 5:39PM
    Sorry Keith, it's what I was advised when I first posted about this on POPLA decisions: To post a separate thread for each here. If I am doing the wrong thing by posting updates that affect each claim on each thread, I apologise. I'm trying to stick to the rules of the forum, be self-sufficient in terms of information that is freely available and to follow the advice of some of the most prolific advisers on here. I am very happy to do whatever would make this easier! I am just one person with two claims for PCNs incurred on two consecutive dates, both appealed at POPLA separately and both failed at POPLA with different answers by different assessors, and both now at 'Letter of Claim' stage with two separate letters. I understand from my research that when it comes to MCOL stage, I can request to have them combined.

    This week, I have received an additional and actual Court Claim, for a completely separate PCN but from the same operator, in the same car park and with the same solicitor (BW Legal). So I am working out (apart from doing my AoS) how best to handle this from here, especially because I am waiting for the outcome of my SAR with Britannia.
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 41,296 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 26 January 2019 at 6:00PM
    If you have two situations, then yes, two separate threads is fine.

    What isn't quite so 'fine' is posting about one incident on the other thread.

    Adding the same post to both threads can only lead to confusion.

    For example, I posted on part 1 about how to file your Defence because you mentioned on that thread that you had received a Claim Form.

    Now that you have mentioned on this thread that you have received a Claim Form, I now wonder whether we should be progressing a court claim on this thread or the other thread.

    Confusion - particularly as you are now referring to A and B, rather than part 1 and part 2.

    Can I suggest that you strictly keep to posting about one incident only to each thread?
  • Hi again,

    I will do what you say and stick to the one incident (Claim Form out of nowhere for a new PCN) on my Part 1 post.

    To clarify, I am not conflating part 1 and part 2 with A. and B; I purposely did this because they are different. It is confusing and has managed to confuse me too - if BWLegal weren't a roboclaim company I would suspect them of throwing this curve ball on purpose.

    My posts about Part 1 and Part 2 are the two separate PCNs, incurred on consecutive days, for which I am at LBC stage and which - due to a SAR submitted to Britannia, are now both on hold until I receive the information, which has been acknowledged by BW Legal. I have called this part A and I hope to combine the two situations asap because the claims are identical apart from two different assessors at POPLA submitting different reasons for my appeals failing. Based on what I have read, it would also be normal to go to court about combined fines, not for each fine separately, so when we get to MCOL stage this will be my first request.

    Part B is the entirely new Claim Form which arrived this week, and which is a surprise because it relates to a PCN I wasn't aware of, incurred 3 months later at the same car park, and about which I have had no communication from Britannia or BWLegal despite multiple letters flying backwards and forwards about the other 2 above. Despite feeling like Part A is under control, the Claim Form has thrown me. As per my previous response though, I have done my AoS and will share my draft defence here shortly on my Part 1 post.

    Thanks for bearing with me - I'm grateful for the support on here and really trying to adhere to etiquette despite the messy circumstances I'm in.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 160,746 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    You will need to ask the courts at every opportunity for the claims to be merged. Include in all defences a list of the active claim numbers and include a point like in this poster's 13a, b and c in their defence:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74992284#Comment_74992284

    However, that probably won't be noticed by the CCBC who hardly look at defences and just allocate cases out, so the best chance to seize is a soon as the claims are allocated to track and sent to your local court, send a letter like part of this:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75362704#Comment_75362704

    So this one is not yet at claim stage is it, so it's likely to be 'claim no 3' soon?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Hi Coupon Mad - yes this new one is at claim stage, I have a formal claim form from CCBC. I've acknowledged service on this one and have read your other links, and been reading more on the forum over the weekend. I think I have two options:

    1. Simply defend the new claim and not refer to the other two which are at LBC stage and on hold. It's interesting to note by the way, having read the forum, that early in January BW Legal were ignoring requests to put cases on hold due to a SAR with other forum members, whereas I have received two very polite letters stating they have received my request and have put on hold until they have consulted their client.

    I'm preparing my defence as we speak (based on signage) because I suspect I'm going to be defending one way or another at some stage!

    2. Continue to prepare my defence but write to the court to alert them to the fact that I am waiting for information in reply to my SAR following 2 LBCs which should (?) contain information I wish to rely on in this defence, because the claims turn on the same facts, car, location, alleged contravention and parking charge and have only been filed separately purely because BW Legal file millions of robo-claims with no checks whatsoever of evidence, detail or anything at all.

    I would then add that BWLegal's 2 letters acknowledging that my file has been placed on hold and acknowledging my communication preference (by mail only) with regards to the two other LBCs were sent on the same day as their 'Notice of County Court Claim Issued' AND on the same day as the Issue Day of the Claim which is further evidence of their practice of filing millions of claims with no checks of details at all. I have also NOT received a Letter Before Claim.

    Based on what you say about the CCBC hardly looking at defences, I might be going off on a tangent with this one and I imagine the CCBC don't care about LBCs, they are only interested in actual claims....

    It's possible that Britannia will send the information for the SAR shortly, and judging by others on the forum I'll then be whacked with the two further claims by BWLegal immediately, in which case I will have three claims which I can justifiably ask to be merged by doing as you say - including in all defences a list of the active claim number and the following points:

    - Taking into account the above points the Defendant will be seeking their costs on the indemnity basis due to the above conduct which was the final insult after the wholly unreasonable and vexatious stance of a parking firm who:

    a. Already has an ongoing case (claim no. 1/current claim about the same location) that they filed against this Defendant in January 2019. The defendant requests the court to merge the 3 claims.

    The claims turn on the same facts, car, location, alleged contravention and parking charge and have only been filed separately purely because BW Legal file millions of robo-claims with no checks whatsoever of evidence, detail or anything at all.

    b. Appear to be ignorant regarding the doctrine of res judicata, despite using a solicitor, BWLegal, which is expected to conduct itself professionally with regard to its first duty to the Courts and due process.

    c. Is clearly engaging in a vexatious pursuit of this Defendant.

    I'm a little anxious about posting here as Keith P has become annoyed at the two threads and my cross-posting on each. I won't continue to cross-post but equally was planning to continue to post about this new claim on my 'Part 1' thread as per Keith's reply. Ultimately the 3 claims are connected but thanks to BWLegal and the timing of their correspondence, they are now completely out of sync!

    Maybe I should start a new thread about the new claim (which is effectively my only actual claim at the moment and for which I am preparing a defence that I will share shortly) and include links to the two LBC threads (Part 1 and Part 2) for context and carry on from there? What do you think? I don't want to p*** everyone off even more when you are all being so helpful!
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