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  • FIRST POST
    • nmp
    • By nmp 9th Nov 18, 6:17 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 16Thanks
    nmp
    UK Parking Patrol Office. Ticketed for exceeding maximum stay
    • #1
    • 9th Nov 18, 6:17 PM
    UK Parking Patrol Office. Ticketed for exceeding maximum stay 9th Nov 18 at 6:17 PM
    I've read the newbies thread, and some other threads on here and understand that the general approach to dealing with these types of tickets. I am about appeal, however I have a couple of questions of what to do or whether they may count towards helping to overturn the ticket. Please could someone advise?

    I have use of a car that's not mine. The reg keeper lives abroad and leaves the car at my place. Occasionally I use the car to keep it running.

    The registered keeper recently visited and collected their car. During their stay, they opened the letters showing that the car had been ticketed by the 'UK Parking Patrol Office' for having "exceeded the maximum stay period". This occurred almost 3 months ago. They also received two other notices, the first a 'reminder notice' which stated the amount due had increased to 100.00.
    Finally a third letter from 'Debt Recovery Plus Ltd' advising the charge had increased to 160.00 and providing 14 days to settle the balance or face court action.

    I no longer have the receipt showing I was a customer at the retail park, but can show a credit card statement with the purchase relating to a lunch shared there with friends. I have spoken to the manager of Mcdonalds where I had been that day, and they advised I liaise with customer services. They in turn have registered my complaint and advised that in the first instance I should lodge an appeal to the Parking company on the basis that I was a valid customer of the restaurant. If the appeal is denied, then and only then would Mcdonald's become involved, with no guarantee's on what they could do.

    So my questions are these. When lodging the template appeal,

    - Should I also provide any further information about any use that was made of the services at the retail park where I exceeded the stay? e.g. provide a censored credit card statement showing the purchases made at Mcdonalds?

    - Should I point out in the appeal that I (as the reg keeper) was out of the country at the time of the offence and also point out that the NTK's weren't received until my return to the country. Would this have any bearing on this matter, particularly the amount due and the threat of court action.

    - Also is there any value in posting the (censored) notices received here to seek advice on whether these are compliant?

    Many Thanks for your help.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Nov 18, 8:09 PM
    • 19,911 Posts
    • 25,202 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:09 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:09 PM
    you can add the proof of purchase info and pics to show that an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron, no naming the driver

    any redacted pics can be hosted on tinypic , but the PPC has to comply with POFA2012 if they wish to stick to keeper liability , in which case it doesnt matter where the keeper was at the time of the incident

    the PPC has 6 years to issue a court claim, at the moment against the keeper because they have no idea who was driving

    so POFA2012 may make a keeper liable, whereas a driver can always be deemed to be liable, if proven to a judge in county court , so anytime within 6 years


    the keeper can contest jurisdiction if they live abroad , right from the outset of the court claim
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Nov 18, 11:31 PM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,533 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 10th Nov 18, 11:31 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Nov 18, 11:31 PM
    The reg keeper lives abroad and leaves the car at my place.
    Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).

    This is important, as UKPPO have been starting a few court claims and will not, if the person in their sights lives abroad.

    If YOU appeal you are giving yourself up as a far easier target. So see if he will.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 11th Nov 18, 9:41 AM
    • 3,444 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #4
    • 11th Nov 18, 9:41 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Nov 18, 9:41 AM
    Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    That would be my advice, too, if C-M hadn't beaten me to it.
    • nmp
    • By nmp 12th Nov 18, 9:39 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    • #5
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:39 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:39 PM
    you can add the proof of purchase info and pics to show that an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron, no naming the driver
    ... the keeper can contest jurisdiction if they live abroad , right from the outset of the court claim
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thank you, and apologies for the delay. I've uploaded the redacted letters, hopefully I've not redacted any information you require. Be glad to hear your thoughts whether anything in the notices may be non compliant.

    Initial Notice to Keeper


    Reminder Letter


    Debt Recovery Letter



    Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).
    ... So see if he will.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks for the advice, the Reg keeper is happy to appeal, but not able to do the leg work right now, so I’ll prepare everything and have them action. WRT your suggestion of the reg keeper notifying UKPPO of their foreign address, I take it we should be doing that as part of the appeal?

    Finally, I would welcome any thoughts regards the below appeal taken from the template and modified with the above comments in mind.

    Many thanks to all for your invaluable help.



    Re PCN number:

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

    Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP, appraising all parties of the debate where Parliament agreed: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''. Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and that 'we make it up most of the time' (BBC Watchdog).

    Formal note:
    I take this opportunity to advise you that the occupant at the time of the alleged contravention, was a customer of McDonalds and Lidl Supermarket within the retail park, and formal representations will be made directly with them. I enclose a copy of the credit card statement showing a purchase made at McDonalds on the date, to support this.

    Secondly I would advise that you update your records to demonstrate my current address for service, as below. Please note, I will be contesting Jurisdiction of this notice.

    Mr XXXX XXXXX
    XXXXX
    XXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXX

    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.
    Last edited by nmp; 13-11-2018 at 2:44 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Nov 18, 9:45 PM
    • 19,911 Posts
    • 25,202 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:45 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:45 PM
    an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron
    Originally posted by Redx

    I was quite specific in what I said , but not TOO specific


    so not "the occupant at the time............"


    and yes, add an address for service of papers, the address abroad
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Nov 18, 9:46 PM
    • 37,942 Posts
    • 22,055 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #7
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:46 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Nov 18, 9:46 PM
    After sending that letter you go into ignore mode


    Read up in the newbies faq thread why no further appeal to IAS when dealing with IPC companies
    • nmp
    • By nmp 12th Nov 18, 10:00 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    • #8
    • 12th Nov 18, 10:00 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Nov 18, 10:00 PM
    I was quite specific in what I said , but not TOO specific


    so not "the occupant at the time............"


    and yes, add an address for service of papers, the address abroad
    Originally posted by Redx
    Understood. Updated to reflect:

    Formal note:
    I take this opportunity to advise you that an occupant of the vehicle was a genuine patron of stores within the retail park, and formal representations will be made directly with them. I enclose a copy of a credit card statement showing a purchase made at McDonalds on the date, to support this, for example.

    Secondly I would advise that you update your records to reflect my current address for service, as below. Please note, I will be contesting jurisdiction.

    Mr XXXX XXXXX
    XXXXX
    XXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXX

    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.

    One question, is it relevant that the car is registered to my address in the UK? I am assuming not.

    Many Thanks.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 12th Nov 18, 11:03 PM
    • 19,911 Posts
    • 25,202 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 12th Nov 18, 11:03 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Nov 18, 11:03 PM
    the vehicle has a registered keeper in the UK, named on the V5C


    an address for service of court papers can be completely different


    for example, with a hire car the owner could be a finance company at one address , the RK could be a firm at a different address , the day to day keeper is the hirer or lessee at a different address, and the driver could be somebody else completely at yet another address, like a chauffeur or friend or car mechanic etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nmp
    • By nmp 12th Nov 18, 11:55 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    Thanks for clarifying. Just to clear some points in my own head, may I pose a few more questions?

    - UKPPO will likely reject the appeal, and the next stage is up to 6 years of letters demanding payments.

    - It is possible in that six years to receive a LBCA, which would require preparing a defence against.

    - The worst case likely outcome of a court hearing is a CCJ against the Reg Keeper or a fine of up to 200.00? Off course, this is assuming that you are taken to court and the judgement is found in favour of the parking company.

    - The CCJ is removed if the fine is paid within one month?

    - With the reg keeper current address outside of England & Wales, UKPPO have no jurisdiction to take the reg keeper to county court to seek a CCJ?

    Is there any other possible outcome in this situation?

    It feels as if I am missing some important piece of information.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Nov 18, 12:22 AM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,533 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes that is all true, and you are missing nothing. I think I would change this though, and get the keeper to attach proof of address (utility or other bill for the address abroad, something like that?):

    Secondly I would advise that you update your records to reflect my current address for service, as below. Please note, if you start a claim despite knowing that my permanent domicile is in another Country, I will be contesting jurisdiction:

    Mr XXXX XXXXX
    XXXXX
    XXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXX

    Proof of my address is attached, so you are aware this is the true address where I can be reasonably reached.

    You must erase the previous address as it is not my address for service and I cannot be reasonably reached there, and do not live in the UK. If I hear from the current residents that UKPPO or your agents are continuing to send letters to the old UK address, and have failed to erase it, I will report you to the Information Commissioner for breach of the right to erasure of old data (GDPR).

    UKPPO cannot reasonably commence court proceedings in the English Court against me and I will not be naming the driver, who was not me. You have no cause of action and need to file this one in the ''too difficult'' pile rather than waste money on postage.

    I do not guarantee I will reply again as I am not liable nor within jurisdiction.

    yours faithfully

    KEEPER'S NAME


    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you must use my are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-11-2018 at 12:24 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nmp
    • By nmp 13th Nov 18, 6:27 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    Thank you Coupon-Mad, Redx and all for all your help and advice. I am filing the appeal shortly using the below template.

    Re PCN number:

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

    Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP, appraising all parties of the debate where Parliament agreed: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''. Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and that 'we make it up most of the time' (BBC Watchdog).

    Formal note:
    I take this opportunity to advise you that an occupant of the vehicle was a genuine patron of stores within the retail park, and formal representations will be made directly with them. I enclose a copy of a credit card statement showing a purchase made at McDonalds on the date, to support this, for example.

    Secondly I would advise that you update your records to reflect my current address for service, as below. Please note, if you start a claim despite knowing that my permanent domicile is in another Country, I will be contesting jurisdiction:

    Mr XXXX XXXXX
    XXXXX
    XXXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXX

    Proof of my address is attached, so you are aware this is the true address where I can be reasonably reached.

    You must erase the previous address as it is not my address for service and I cannot be reasonably reached there, and do not live in the UK. If I hear from the current residents that UKPPO or your agents are continuing to send letters to the old UK address, and have failed to erase it, I will report you to the Information Commissioner for breach of the right to erasure of old data (GDPR).

    UKPPO cannot reasonably commence court proceedings in the English Court against me and I will not be naming the driver, who was not me. You have no cause of action and need to file this one in the ''too difficult'' pile rather than waste money on postage.

    I do not guarantee I will reply again as I am not liable nor within jurisdiction.

    I await your response confirming that this PPC has been cancelled.

    yours faithfully

    KEEPER'S NAME


    One other question, the reg keeper has a residential address, as well as a PO Box for postal communication. Would it be acceptable to provide both (or even just the PO Box) and request all communication is through the PO Box? Not sure if this would be considered an acceptable 'address for service'.

    Also just to clarify, the reg keeper lives in Spain, is it still safe to assume that jurisdiction is not applicable, in case of any strange EU laws.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Nov 18, 6:37 PM
    • 20,238 Posts
    • 31,930 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Would it be acceptable to provide both (or even just the PO Box) and request all communication is through the PO Box? Not sure if this would be considered an acceptable 'address for service'.
    Just go with the full postal address, then there'll be no suspicion that there's something being hidden in a PO Box one. Don't give them any reason to keep this going.

    Also just to clarify, the reg keeper lives in Spain, is it still safe to assume that jurisdiction is not applicable, in case of any strange EU laws.
    Even Scotland is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nmp
    • By nmp 13th Nov 18, 6:40 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    Just go with the full postal address, then there'll be no suspicion that there's something being hidden in a PO Box one. Don't give them any reason to keep this going.



    Even Scotland is outside the jurisdiction of the English courts!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thank you so much, I will get this appeal lodged shortly.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Nov 18, 6:58 PM
    • 19,911 Posts
    • 25,202 Thanks
    Redx
    Thanks for clarifying. Just to clear some points in my own head, may I pose a few more questions?

    - UKPPO will likely reject the appeal, and the next stage is up to 6 years of letters demanding payments. - YES

    - It is possible in that six years to receive a LBCA, which would require preparing a REBUTTAL against. - YES

    - It is possible in that six years to receive an MCOL, which would require preparing a defence against.- YES

    - The worst case likely outcome of a court hearing is a CCJ against the Reg Keeper of a JUDGMENT (NOT a fine) of up to 200.00? Off course, this is assuming that you are taken to court and the judgement is found in favour of the parking company. - CORRECT

    - The CCJ is removed if the JUDGMENT (NOT a fine) is paid within one month? - CORRECT

    - With the reg keeper current address outside of England & Wales, UKPPO have no jurisdiction to take the reg keeper to county court to seek a CCJ? - CORRECT

    Is there any other possible outcome in this situation? - LIKE WHAT ?

    It feels as if I am missing some important piece of information. - LIKE WHAT ?
    Originally posted by nmp

    there you go, a few alterations made etc

    you seem obsessed by the word "fine", this is a civil matter and so no "fine" will ever exist or come about


    so as Umkomaas says, give the correct postal address for service of papers
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nmp
    • By nmp 13th Nov 18, 10:30 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    there you go, a few alterations made etc

    you seem obsessed by the word "fine", this is a civil matter and so no "fine" will ever exist or come about


    so as Umkomaas says, give the correct postal address for service of papers
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thank you Both, some great helpful information. Reg keeper is submitting the appeal now.

    On the appeal form it asks if you are one of the following:

    Driver of the Vehicle
    Keeper of the vehicle
    Driver and Keeper of the vehicle
    None of the above.

    First thoughts are to opt for 'None of the above' to avoid any issues with admission. Sound ok? These folk seem very slippery so being extra cautious!

    Thanks for your help.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Nov 18, 10:33 PM
    • 19,911 Posts
    • 25,202 Thanks
    Redx
    its a keeper appeal, from a keeper
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nmp
    • By nmp 13th Nov 18, 10:38 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    nmp
    its a keeper appeal, from a keeper
    Originally posted by Redx
    Got it, Will submit as keeper. Thank you once again.
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