UK Parking Patrol Office. Ticketed for exceeding maximum stay

nmp · 9 November 2018 at 7:17PM

I've read the newbies thread, and some other threads on here and understand that the general approach to dealing with these types of tickets. I am about appeal, however I have a couple of questions of what to do or whether they may count towards helping to overturn the ticket. Please could someone advise?

I have use of a car that's not mine. The reg keeper lives abroad and leaves the car at my place. Occasionally I use the car to keep it running.

The registered keeper recently visited and collected their car. During their stay, they opened the letters showing that the car had been ticketed by the 'UK Parking Patrol Office' for having "exceeded the maximum stay period". This occurred almost 3 months ago. They also received two other notices, the first a 'reminder notice' which stated the amount due had increased to £100.00.
Finally a third letter from 'Debt Recovery Plus Ltd' advising the charge had increased to 160.00 and providing 14 days to settle the balance or face court action.

I no longer have the receipt showing I was a customer at the retail park, but can show a credit card statement with the purchase relating to a lunch shared there with friends. I have spoken to the manager of Mcdonalds where I had been that day, and they advised I liaise with customer services. They in turn have registered my complaint and advised that in the first instance I should lodge an appeal to the Parking company on the basis that I was a valid customer of the restaurant. If the appeal is denied, then and only then would Mcdonald's become involved, with no guarantee's on what they could do.

So my questions are these. When lodging the template appeal,

- Should I also provide any further information about any use that was made of the services at the retail park where I exceeded the stay? e.g. provide a censored credit card statement showing the purchases made at Mcdonalds?

- Should I point out in the appeal that I (as the reg keeper) was out of the country at the time of the offence and also point out that the NTK's weren't received until my return to the country. Would this have any bearing on this matter, particularly the amount due and the threat of court action.

- Also is there any value in posting the (censored) notices received here to seek advice on whether these are compliant?

Many Thanks for your help.

Redx · 9 November 2018 at 9:09PM

you can add the proof of purchase info and pics to show that an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron, no naming the driver

any redacted pics can be hosted on tinypic , but the PPC has to comply with POFA2012 if they wish to stick to keeper liability , in which case it doesnt matter where the keeper was at the time of the incident

the PPC has 6 years to issue a court claim, at the moment against the keeper because they have no idea who was driving

so POFA2012 may make a keeper liable, whereas a driver can always be deemed to be liable, if proven to a judge in county court , so anytime within 6 years

the keeper can contest jurisdiction if they live abroad , right from the outset of the court claim

Coupon-mad · 11 November 2018 at 12:31AM

The reg keeper lives abroad and leaves the car at my place.

Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).

This is important, as UKPPO have been starting a few court claims and will not, if the person in their sights lives abroad.

If YOU appeal you are giving yourself up as a far easier target. So see if he will.

The_Slithy_Tove · 11 November 2018 at 10:41AM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).

That would be my advice, too, if C-M hadn't beaten me to it.

nmp · 12 November 2018 at 10:39PM

Redx wrote: »

you can add the proof of purchase info and pics to show that an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron, no naming the driver
... the keeper can contest jurisdiction if they live abroad , right from the outset of the court claim

Thank you, and apologies for the delay. I've uploaded the redacted letters, hopefully I've not redacted any information you require. Be glad to hear your thoughts whether anything in the notices may be non compliant.

Initial Notice to Keeper

Reminder Letter

Debt Recovery Letter

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Then the reg keeper writes to tell UKPPO their address for service (full foreign address).
... So see if he will.

Thanks for the advice, the Reg keeper is happy to appeal, but not able to do the leg work right now, so I’ll prepare everything and have them action. WRT your suggestion of the reg keeper notifying UKPPO of their foreign address, I take it we should be doing that as part of the appeal?

Finally, I would welcome any thoughts regards the below appeal taken from the template and modified with the above comments in mind.

Many thanks to all for your invaluable help.

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter).

I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP, appraising all parties of the debate where Parliament agreed: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''. Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and that 'we make it up most of the time' (BBC Watchdog).

Formal note:
I take this opportunity to advise you that the occupant at the time of the alleged contravention, was a customer of McDonalds and Lidl Supermarket within the retail park, and formal representations will be made directly with them. I enclose a copy of the credit card statement showing a purchase made at McDonalds on the date, to support this.

Secondly I would advise that you update your records to demonstrate my current address for service, as below. Please note, I will be contesting Jurisdiction of this notice.

Mr XXXX XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX

Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.

Redx · 12 November 2018 at 10:45PM

Redx wrote: »

an OCCUPANT of the vehicle was a genuine patron

I was quite specific in what I said , but not TOO specific

so not "the occupant at the time............"

and yes, add an address for service of papers, the address abroad

Quentin · 12 November 2018 at 10:46PM

After sending that letter you go into ignore mode

Read up in the newbies faq thread why no further appeal to IAS when dealing with IPC companies

nmp · 12 November 2018 at 11:00PM

Redx wrote: »

I was quite specific in what I said , but not TOO specific

so not "the occupant at the time............"

and yes, add an address for service of papers, the address abroad

Understood. Updated to reflect:

Formal note:
I take this opportunity to advise you that an occupant of the vehicle was a genuine patron of stores within the retail park, and formal representations will be made directly with them. I enclose a copy of a credit card statement showing a purchase made at McDonalds on the date, to support this, for example.

Secondly I would advise that you update your records to reflect my current address for service, as below. Please note, I will be contesting jurisdiction.

Mr XXXX XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX

Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.

One question, is it relevant that the car is registered to my address in the UK? I am assuming not.

Many Thanks.

Redx · 13 November 2018 at 12:03AM

the vehicle has a registered keeper in the UK, named on the V5C

an address for service of court papers can be completely different

for example, with a hire car the owner could be a finance company at one address , the RK could be a firm at a different address , the day to day keeper is the hirer or lessee at a different address, and the driver could be somebody else completely at yet another address, like a chauffeur or friend or car mechanic etc

nmp · 13 November 2018 at 12:55AM

Thanks for clarifying. Just to clear some points in my own head, may I pose a few more questions?

- UKPPO will likely reject the appeal, and the next stage is up to 6 years of letters demanding payments.

- It is possible in that six years to receive a LBCA, which would require preparing a defence against.

- The worst case likely outcome of a court hearing is a CCJ against the Reg Keeper or a fine of up to £200.00? Off course, this is assuming that you are taken to court and the judgement is found in favour of the parking company.

- The CCJ is removed if the fine is paid within one month?

- With the reg keeper current address outside of England & Wales, UKPPO have no jurisdiction to take the reg keeper to county court to seek a CCJ?

Is there any other possible outcome in this situation?

It feels as if I am missing some important piece of information.

Coupon-mad · 13 November 2018 at 1:22AM

Yes that is all true, and you are missing nothing. I think I would change this though, and get the keeper to attach proof of address (utility or other bill for the address abroad, something like that?):

Secondly I would advise that you update your records to reflect my current address for service, as below. Please note, if you start a claim despite knowing that my permanent domicile is in another Country, I will be contesting jurisdiction:

Mr XXXX XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX

Proof of my address is attached, so you are aware this is the true address where I can be reasonably reached.

You must erase the previous address as it is not my address for service and I cannot be reasonably reached there, and do not live in the UK. If I hear from the current residents that UKPPO or your agents are continuing to send letters to the old UK address, and have failed to erase it, I will report you to the Information Commissioner for breach of the right to erasure of old data (GDPR).

UKPPO cannot reasonably commence court proceedings in the English Court against me and I will not be naming the driver, who was not me. You have no cause of action and need to file this one in the ''too difficult'' pile rather than waste money on postage.

I do not guarantee I will reply again as I am not liable nor within jurisdiction.

yours faithfully

KEEPER'S NAME

[STRIKE]Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you must use my are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.[/STRIKE]

UK Parking Patrol Office. Ticketed for exceeding maximum stay

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