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    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 13th Sep 18, 12:29 PM
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    gizzmansl2
    Parent in bad way after a failed ESA assessment, need advice
    • #1
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:29 PM
    Parent in bad way after a failed ESA assessment, need advice 13th Sep 18 at 12:29 PM
    Hello, a few years back my mum was on esa for a while suffering from various mental and physical illnesses such as anxiety, chronic depression, anorexia, insomnia, copd, back pain, body aches, alcoholism and others and needs proper help and failed her assessment around the end of 2016 so subsequently hit rock bottom and tried to take her life and she was admitted in hospital for it overnight and after coming home she had a massive mental breakdown because she didn’t want to drink again so she was taken back in a few days after coming out for a big detox and mental breakdown.

    She was in hospital for 8 days and obviously claimed a new esa claim because of how bad she got and after going back and doing another assessment she was put into support group and ever since been trying to get better but it takes time especially after such traumatic events. Now last month on the 26th Aug she failed her assessment and got 0 points partially because certain questions esp regarding her mental health were not asked or were asked/assessed in a way she didn’t understand as she hides/cant be herself around strangers and new places especially as she was off her medication for 3 months prior because they kept mucking up her prescription and asked her to visit gp to redo them etc and as the docs is so far away she gave up as she was too scared to push it so was a bit unfair.

    Now she has hit rock bottom again and feels suicidal and is having the dark thoughts, hearing voices, sleep deprivation, all other symptoms and illnesses she suffers from have gone up and she had a breakdown again the other night and dialled 111 and after a long night we saw the doctors the next day who said they would refer her to mental health/crisis team. So the same afternoon they rung her and she couldn’t understand the person or the approach in questions as she needs help with mental issues and he was saying stuff like "have you tried a drugs group etc" so my mum ended up putting down the phone as she got into a state, again because of her mental condition.

    We are going for a MR naturally and adding notes from her and me best describing the real conditions and how they effect her ability to work and we argue against many points saying the real picture and she has a 3 month fit note already sent in and that’s pretty much all we have. What we would like to know is who do we contact or how do we go about pushing for proof of her mental and physical conditions like letters or diagnosis for them etc to help fight this and if MR likely fails and we go to tribunal does she satisfy for a basic rate of pay during this as technically its a new claim and without a doubt her conditions have worsened and she believes she has others not previously mentioned so again how can we prove that and who do we push for help as she will try bad things again or end up in hospital for some reason, any and all advice and help appreciated, thanks
Page 1
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 12:40 PM
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    • #2
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:40 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:40 PM
    Does she have any letters from Consultants that she can use? When i've been to see Consultants in the past they've always CC'd me into the letter, which meant i've had a copy as well as my GP. If she doesn't then she can ask her GP if they have anything in her medical records she can use. A fit note won't help her for either the MR or Tribunal. A letter from yourself and a diary from her may help. Does she have a social worker?



    If the MR fails and she takes it to Tribunal once the Tribunal accept her appeal then she'll be able to go back onto assessment rate for ESA, providing she doesn't claim Universal Credit in the mean time. As explained in your previous post.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 12:44 PM
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    • #3
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:44 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:44 PM
    It's also worth knowing that the DWP or Tribunal can't take into consideration a worsening of a condition since the date of the decision. They will only take into consideration what she was like at the time of the decision.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 13th Sep 18, 12:58 PM
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    gizzmansl2
    • #4
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:58 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Sep 18, 12:58 PM
    Thanks for the help poppy and no she doesnt have any consultant letters or anyone like that to help, do you know how we get that help and if thats the case with tribunal we will no doubt do a new claim as she is 100% unfit for work and needs real help, her head is a warzone but we just need ways of proving that and chasing it up. The attempt on her life a few years back is all she has medical wise and has never left her, we also need to prove that but dont know how as it seems were being sent in circles.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 1:09 PM
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    • #5
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:09 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:09 PM
    Thanks for the help poppy and no she doesnt have any consultant letters or anyone like that to help, do you know how we get that help and if thats the case with tribunal we will no doubt do a new claim as she is 100% unfit for work and needs real help, her head is a warzone but we just need ways of proving that and chasing it up. The attempt on her life a few years back is all she has medical wise and has never left her, we also need to prove that but dont know how as it seems were being sent in circles.
    Originally posted by gizzmansl2
    As i advised, ask her GP if they have anything in her medical records that she can use.



    As she's in a full UC area then she won't be able to start a new claim for ESA, she'll have to claim UC. Starting a new claim when she has no evidence to continue with the Tribunal seems pointless. The same thing is likely to happen with UC. I'd advise you to contact her local CAB or other disability advice centre for help.



    When claiming LCW with UC with a fit note your work coach doesn't always reduce your work commits to zero and she could very well end up having to attend appointments and look for work for a certain amount of hours per week. If she doesn't do this they she'll be sanctioned, i've heard this so many times. I really wouldn't advise her to go down the UC route. Continue with the MR/Tribunal is my advice.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 13th Sep 18, 1:29 PM
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    gizzmansl2
    • #6
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:29 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:29 PM
    As i advised, ask her GP if they have anything in her medical records that she can use.



    As she's in a full UC area then she won't be able to start a new claim for ESA, she'll have to claim UC. Starting a new claim when she has no evidence to continue with the Tribunal seems pointless. The same thing is likely to happen with UC. I'd advise you to contact her local CAB or other disability advice centre for help.



    When claiming LCW with UC with a fit note your work coach doesn't always reduce your work commits to zero and she could very well end up having to attend appointments and look for work for a certain amount of hours per week. If she doesn't do this they she'll be sanctioned, i've heard this so many times. I really wouldn't advise her to go down the UC route. Continue with the MR/Tribunal is my advice.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Dont worry after the help on the previous post we will be pushing tribinal especially as she is deserving of it and we can show that verbally there but just need help and ways to gather evidence and other means.

    Say we do have no choice after tribunal except to start a new claim i heard they still do assessments similar to esa to see your state and ability to work so surely its not too different from esa in that regard or that is surely illegal forcing someone into work without a way to show they cant, goes without saying this is a last resort.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 1:32 PM
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    • #7
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:32 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:32 PM
    failed her assessment around the end of 2016
    Originally posted by gizzmansl2
    Can i just check the date here is correct? and that she hasn't recently been found fit for work? If the date is correct here then you're outside the time scale for MR and Tribunal. What has she been claiming since this date?
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 13th Sep 18, 1:40 PM
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    • #8
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:40 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Sep 18, 1:40 PM
    Can i just check the date here is correct? and that she hasn't recently been found fit for work? If the date is correct here then you're outside the time scale for MR and Tribunal. What has she been claiming since this date?
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Sorry in the end of 2016 she failed so tried to take her... And was hospitalized etc so we went for a new claim and didnt fight the old one and after having an assessment after coming out she got back on and now its happening all over again as she failed this most recent one end of Aug but now we want to obviously fight it to stay on esa.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 4:35 PM
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    • #9
    • 13th Sep 18, 4:35 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Sep 18, 4:35 PM
    Sorry in the end of 2016 she failed so tried to take her... And was hospitalized etc so we went for a new claim and didnt fight the old one and after having an assessment after coming out she got back on and now its happening all over again as she failed this most recent one end of Aug but now we want to obviously fight it to stay on esa.
    Originally posted by gizzmansl2
    As she's previously been in hospital then surely her GP has letters etc in her medical file that she can use. Any other appointments that she's previously had? Usually Consultants will write a report and send it to the GP. Does she have a social worker?


    I'd advise her to speak to her GP for the medical evidence. She may not be able to get any of that ready in time for the MR but there will be plenty of time to get everything ready for a Tribunal. Waiting times for these are several months and more in some areas.


    Appearing in person for her Tribunal, if she gets this far will give her the best chance of a decision in her favour.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 13th Sep 18, 6:15 PM
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    gizzmansl2
    As she's previously been in hospital then surely her GP has letters etc in her medical file that she can use. Any other appointments that she's previously had? Usually Consultants will write a report and send it to the GP. Does she have a social worker?


    I'd advise her to speak to her GP for the medical evidence. She may not be able to get any of that ready in time for the MR but there will be plenty of time to get everything ready for a Tribunal. Waiting times for these are several months and more in some areas.


    Appearing in person for her Tribunal, if she gets this far will give her the best chance of a decision in her favour.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Thanks for your help poppy, yes your right we will chat to the gp to ask for that but would have thought its so long ago you cant bring it up but as it stands i had a call from mental health team and they are advising things so hopefully we will make leway in getting her well and finding the cause of this so we can maybe use that.

    Do you know at a tribunal if they still do take some sort of new evidence such as the state you can see my mum in worsening conditions or not and if by then we get regular gp/mental health checks the things stated on that, because if all they look at is the evidence they had at the time it makes it a no win situation, what can normally swing favour in your way and how do others suceed when they failed at the assesment and what sort of evidence or things do we need to push for?

    So sorry for all the questions but this is all new to me and im struggling to make sense of some of it but your being so helpful, many thanks
    • nightsky224
    • By nightsky224 13th Sep 18, 7:01 PM
    • 837 Posts
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    nightsky224
    So awful for you all. I am going through something similar with my mum. I can highly reccomend looking at https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk there are some free guides but the paid ones are the best. Think it's a 20 yearly subscription which is well worth it with detailed guides around assessment, tribunals etc I couldn't of done it with out it
    Recently married and loving it x
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 13th Sep 18, 10:01 PM
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    poppy12345
    You can send extra evidence to the Tribunal, if she gets that far and they will look at all evidence you send, that's not what i said. What i said was the Tribunal won't take into consideration any worsening of a condition since the decision was made. So during the appeal hearing if they see that she appears to be worse then they won't take that into consideration.



    I'm not sure what else to advise you for what evidence to push for, other that what i've already stated. I have no idea how her conditions affect her, which is why it can be useful to get help at this stage from a local disability advice centre near her.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 14th Sep 18, 9:47 AM
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    gizzmansl2
    You can send extra evidence to the Tribunal, if she gets that far and they will look at all evidence you send, that's not what i said. What i said was the Tribunal won't take into consideration any worsening of a condition since the decision was made. So during the appeal hearing if they see that she appears to be worse then they won't take that into consideration.



    I'm not sure what else to advise you for what evidence to push for, other that what i've already stated. I have no idea how her conditions affect her, which is why it can be useful to get help at this stage from a local disability advice centre near her.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Oh ok, sorry poppy i understand what you mean, at a tribunal do you know if we can argue the points as to why she does deserve so and so even without hard evidence as once the assessments passed its imposible to get records after so any evidence we have will only be gotten after the assessment took place but will still apply to her conditions. For example she didnt/struggled too convey the real extent of her conditions on so and so question which is true because of her mind state and we can explain the real truth. For one they gave her zero points for going out unaided/new places which is totally wrong as she cant go out without someone and we said as much at the assessment so i know we cant call them liars but a lot of it was not conveyed across properly.
    • calcotti
    • By calcotti 14th Sep 18, 9:50 AM
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    calcotti
    You need to set your arguments out in writing and send them to the tribunal in advance. At the tribunal itself the panel will wish to speak to the claimant to explore further how her health impacts her. Their questioning will be guided by what they have seen in the evidence prior to the hearing.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 14th Sep 18, 10:12 AM
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    poppy12345
    For one they gave her zero points for going out unaided/new places which is totally wrong as she cant go out without someone and we said as much at the assessment so i know we cant call them liars but a lot of it was not conveyed across properly.
    Originally posted by gizzmansl2
    You need to understand the descriptors for each group for ESA and this says you don't fully understand them. There's no points available for not being able to go out alone for ESA, that would be for PIP.



    Here's the descriptors for each group. Being placed into the Support Group isn't about scoring points, it's about satisfying at least one for the descriptors.
    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-glossary/1354-work-related-activity-group-descriptors


    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/esa-glossary/1353-support-group-descriptors


    Reg 29 and 35 explained here.
    http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/making-exception


    Reg 35 might apply to her.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 14th Sep 18, 11:07 AM
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    gizzmansl2
    Thanks everyone, i did read the descriptors but got mixed up sorry, there is a lot she matches like not bathing/washing since her traumatic experience a few years ago and doesnt eat for weeks on end and many others that surely fall into some of the criteria and we will say that.

    Just confused as to how to gather evidence that was never there at the time because naturally she was on esa at the time so didnt need any nor knew this would happen so maybe a doctors note after the fact etc might be all we can muster.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 14th Sep 18, 12:54 PM
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    poppy12345
    A DR's fit/sick note won't help her here. The evidence she needs is what will prove she's not fit for work. It doesn't matter if it wasn't sent in as evidence when the form was sent. They will still take it into consideration. What they won't take into consideration is a worsening of condition since the decision was made. I still think you're missing the point her, sorry. You should be looking at the Support Group descriptors or reg 35. Getting into the Support Group isn't about scoring points.
    • gizzmansl2
    • By gizzmansl2 14th Sep 18, 2:46 PM
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    gizzmansl2
    A DR's fit/sick note won't help her here. The evidence she needs is what will prove she's not fit for work. It doesn't matter if it wasn't sent in as evidence when the form was sent. They will still take it into consideration. What they won't take into consideration is a worsening of condition since the decision was made. I still think you're missing the point her, sorry. You should be looking at the Support Group descriptors or reg 35. Getting into the Support Group isn't about scoring points.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I do understand, i spose i was merely saying thats all. Yes reg 35 is very fitting but we told them before she is su*****al especially as she did actually go ahead before and try it and needs time to recover from such an ordeal and she will end up in that dark place but that was ignored and its hard to prove as no one wants too listen nor is it easy to find help with these sort of things. Shes genuinely terrorfied about the thought of going into the wide world because of the damage shes done to her body and mind and the constant battle with her mental self so its very hard to have people wanting to back you and help fight your corner.
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