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  • FIRST POST
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 8:23 PM
    • 22Posts
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    MrMotivate
    Unauthorised Transaction - Claim Declined / Natwest Won't Do Chargeback
    • #1
    • 9th May 18, 8:23 PM
    Unauthorised Transaction - Claim Declined / Natwest Won't Do Chargeback 9th May 18 at 8:23 PM
    Hi all, I posted on the PayPal community forum but it's very rare to get a response on there, so I'm going to copy and paste the original post below. I hope someone can help me out:

    Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on this situation.



    I have used PayPal for many years, but I'm a bit confused as to why they are continuing to deny a claim I have made for an unauthorised transaction (totalling $353.50).



    I'll try and keep things short and simple, I have been misinformed by multiple agents over the phone who have all told me different things with regards to how this can be resolved.



    - I logged in on the 8th May to see a transaction of $353.50 being transferred from my bank to an e-mail that I can only assume is based in America (I'm in the UK). I don't recognise the e-mail or the name on the transaction. The money is coming from my bank directly and straight to their PayPal.



    My claim has been declined twice already, but I have been persistent on the phone to try and get this resolved urgently as frankly it's a lot of money to me. Their reasons being that they 'couldn't find anything that represented unauthorised activity.



    1. I would never send a gift of $353.50 to a random e-mail address across the world, to whom I have no idea who it is.

    2. If I was making a purchase of this kind of value I would certainly have used the goods/services option - I assume PayPal don't even bother to contact the 'seller' in order to receive some sort of information from them? I assure you that they won't be able to provide any delivery details because I've not bought anything!

    3. Multiple agents (and also via e-mail) have told me that a second case can be opened for an 'item not received', however another agent told me this won't be possible and that I've been wrongly advised by PayPal (From their agents on the phone twice and also via e-mail).



    This case has now been escalated to the fraud team and I'm hoping that this third time around it will be resolved, however the woman on the phone said it's very unlikely that I will be getting my money back.



    I was then questioned on my other transactions on my account i.e. eBay purchases / eBay sales / Royal Mail postage labels. I am unsure as to why those transactions have anything to do with this fraudulent issue of me losing $353.50?



    Apologies if this was long to read, but I am deeply stressed and anxious about this entire situation and I am just looking for some kind of help with the matter, as I'm not willing to simply lose $353.50 to a random scammer.



    Furthermore I have two more things to add:



    - The first agent I spoke to advised me that I probably had a virus/malware on my PC that did the transaction, and I should run a scan and send them photos. If I could do this then the agent would approve the case for me. I did this for them and then they decided to decline it again?!



    - I have also contacted Natwest (my bank card provider) about this situation, as I hoped I could do some kind of chargeback. However, they told me, in their own words that they 'have an alliance with PayPal', and it's impossible for them to assist me. Despite the payment coming from my bank account directly and not my PayPal balance. The man on the phone did cancel the direct debit to PayPal, but this only means my PayPal balance will go to minus $353.50 at some stage and I'll be in debt to them, which I don't want to happen (credit rating and bailiffs etc...).


    So in total I have spoken to 6 agents, had two e-mails, and still this has not been resolved. Anyone else out there had some experience like this and could offer me advice?



    Many thanks.
Page 1
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 9th May 18, 9:26 PM
    • 599 Posts
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    18cc
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 9:26 PM
    • #2
    • 9th May 18, 9:26 PM
    This is a very strange occurrence and I can completely understand how it is stressing you out I can't suggest much other than to have a really good think about how this can have happened

    For example what were you doing on that day were you logged onto PayPal were you even at the computer.

    Have you tried Googling the email address the payment was made too and indeed even contacting that email address to ask if they can throw any light on the transaction

    Have you had a thought about how the payment could have been made in Dollars - was the payment made in pounds and then converted into dollars or was the exact amount of dollars and cents input
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 9:46 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 9:46 PM
    • #3
    • 9th May 18, 9:46 PM
    This is a very strange occurrence and I can completely understand how it is stressing you out I can't suggest much other than to have a really good think about how this can have happened

    For example what were you doing on that day were you logged onto PayPal were you even at the computer.

    Have you tried Googling the email address the payment was made too and indeed even contacting that email address to ask if they can throw any light on the transaction

    Have you had a thought about how the payment could have been made in Dollars - was the payment made in pounds and then converted into dollars or was the exact amount of dollars and cents input
    Originally posted by 18cc
    Thanks for your reply.


    The payment was made in dollars, a total of 350 exactly then 3.50 extra for the fee.

    I have emailed the recipient but had no response, I doubt I will get one as it's probably a scammer's email.

    The payment was done at roughly 6 in the morning according to PayPal and I was not on my PC at this time, I was sleeping.

    I am quite shocked to hear that Natwest were unable to help me at all with the problem despite my bank being charged directly. PayPal seem to not care at all and appear to believe that nothing fraudulent has taken place, but have so far provided me with no evidence for this. They were meant to e-mail me with another update today but that hasn't happened, and I assume since their customer service is now closed it won't be coming any time soon. Surely they can see that there's no logic in me sending a gifted payment of 350 dollars to the US... my transactions have been in the UK only. I have no friends and family outside of Nottingham, never mind the United States...
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th May 18, 9:56 PM
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    boo_star
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:56 PM
    • #4
    • 9th May 18, 9:56 PM
    As a quick note, your PayPal going negative won!!!8217;t be reported on your credit file and the likelihood of them taking you to court (and as a result having bailiffs be instructed) is incredibly small. And you!!!8217;d have a chance to defend yourself anyway.

    Did your bank reverse the DD or simply cancel it?
    • arthur2
    • By arthur2 9th May 18, 10:15 PM
    • 64 Posts
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    arthur2
    • #5
    • 9th May 18, 10:15 PM
    • #5
    • 9th May 18, 10:15 PM
    Have you considered reporting to Action Fraud, i.e. UK Police who deal with financial scams? Their website is easy to use. Although the payment went abroad, PayPal is subject to our banking laws, I believe.
    --
    Arthur
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 10:19 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 10:19 PM
    • #6
    • 9th May 18, 10:19 PM
    As a quick note, your PayPal going negative won!!!8217;t be reported on your credit file and the likelihood of them taking you to court (and as a result having bailiffs be instructed) is incredibly small. And you!!!8217;d have a chance to defend yourself anyway.

    Did your bank reverse the DD or simply cancel it?
    Originally posted by boo_star
    Hi, thanks for your reply.

    About 8 years ago I had an issue with PayPal similar to this (on a much smaller scale though). My balance went to minus £40 and they sent me multiple letters threatening to send bailiffs etc to claim the £40. I was furious and refused to pay the balance off at the time because again it was fraudulently claimed. In the end, I paid the £40 to stop the letters and the threats they kept sending me.

    Are you sure it won't affect my credit rating? If not, that's great news, as I'm quite picky about keeping that in good order.

    I phoned Natwest earlier and asked if I could do a chargeback on the transaction before it appeared on my statement (it's still processing and not on my statement yet, but has been charged on PayPal). The agent of Natwest said all he could do was cancel the direct debit agreement with PayPal as they have an alliance with PayPal where basically they refuse to do chargebacks against that company. I always thought chargebacks could always be done, no matter what the business was, because of course PayPal is jut the middle man in this situation. The actual scammer is the individual in America who has sent the funds via PayPal from my account.

    The agent said the amount will appear on my statement shortly but will then be taken off when they counter it. However I told him this would just leave me with a minus balance in my PayPal, as it will just go down to -$353.50, which I would eventually have to pay off out of my own pocket. So basically Natwest have not resolved the issue at all.

    Hope that makes some sort of sense... Thanks
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 10:23 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    • #7
    • 9th May 18, 10:23 PM
    • #7
    • 9th May 18, 10:23 PM
    Have you considered reporting to Action Fraud, i.e. UK Police who deal with financial scams? Their website is easy to use. Although the payment went abroad, PayPal is subject to our banking laws, I believe.
    Originally posted by arthur2
    Hi thanks for your reply. Yes I have considered this, I've used them before for a buyer on eBay who switched discs around when purchasing some media from me (returning his broken copy).

    It's something I could do, but from experience and research I know nothing ever comes from it. I know eBay always take your side though if you provide them a crime number from action fraud, however PayPal are a lot different to this. I am 90% sure that I won't be able to claim the money back (judging by PayPal's reaction so far, although some agents seem to get my hopes up before they transfer me to another agent who changes their mind). But, I will keep fighting it until it's hopefully returned. Simply because 350 dollars is a lot of money to me, and in fact I am currently struggling because of this fraudster.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th May 18, 10:32 PM
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    boo_star
    • #8
    • 9th May 18, 10:32 PM
    • #8
    • 9th May 18, 10:32 PM
    Hi, thanks for your reply.

    About 8 years ago I had an issue with PayPal similar to this (on a much smaller scale though). My balance went to minus £40 and they sent me multiple letters threatening to send bailiffs etc to claim the £40. I was furious and refused to pay the balance off at the time because again it was fraudulently claimed. In the end, I paid the £40 to stop the letters and the threats they kept sending me.

    Are you sure it won't affect my credit rating? If not, that's great news, as I'm quite picky about keeping that in good order.

    I phoned Natwest earlier and asked if I could do a chargeback on the transaction before it appeared on my statement (it's still processing and not on my statement yet, but has been charged on PayPal). The agent of Natwest said all he could do was cancel the direct debit agreement with PayPal as they have an alliance with PayPal where basically they refuse to do chargebacks against that company. I always thought chargebacks could always be done, no matter what the business was, because of course PayPal is jut the middle man in this situation. The actual scammer is the individual in America who has sent the funds via PayPal from my account.

    The agent said the amount will appear on my statement shortly but will then be taken off when they counter it. However I told him this would just leave me with a minus balance in my PayPal, as it will just go down to -$353.50, which I would eventually have to pay off out of my own pocket. So basically Natwest have not resolved the issue at all.

    Hope that makes some sort of sense... Thanks
    Originally posted by MrMotivate
    You need to be clear exactly how you were charged.

    If itís a DD and the amount hasnít been taken, cancel the DD.

    If it was a card payment you may have issues. You didnít authorise the transaction on PayPal but you did give PayPal the authority to debut your card at any time. Iíd ask to speak to their fraud team and argue it with them, and raise an official complaint if they refuse to do a chargeback.

    Either way PayPal are going to start pestering you for the money back. Whether you can put up with that for a few months is up to you.

    If they were screwing me around like that I would out of principle.

    Iíll also add that youíll probably be permanently blacklisted by PayPal.
    • paragon909
    • By paragon909 9th May 18, 10:38 PM
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    paragon909
    • #9
    • 9th May 18, 10:38 PM
    • #9
    • 9th May 18, 10:38 PM
    Bank and paypal can speak with each other and confirm things like location, cookies and IP address that was used. If your debit card or credit card was linked to your paypal then whoever sent the paypal gained unlawful access to your account to send(have you changed your password and security questions), Paypal will be able to see this! And can give that info to the bank who might also check it against your online banking information to see if it matches.


    Maybe paypal should start using OTP for instant payments...
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 10:43 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    You need to be clear exactly how you were charged.

    If itís a DD and the amount hasnít been taken, cancel the DD.

    If it was a card payment you may have issues. You didnít authorise the transaction on PayPal but you did give PayPal the authority to debut your card at any time. Iíd ask to speak to their fraud team and argue it with them, and raise an official complaint if they refuse to do a chargeback.

    Either way PayPal are going to start pestering you for the money back. Whether you can put up with that for a few months is up to you.

    If they were screwing me around like that I would out of principle.

    Iíll also add that youíll probably be permanently blacklisted by PayPal.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    That's the major problem here. I run an eBay business (on a different PayPal account). To be blacklisted from PayPal puts me out of business, so that's out of the question completely.

    I have 2 options of paying on my account where the fraud was committed. The first option takes payment directly from my bank account number/sort code. The back up option i.e. second option takes the money from my debit card.

    When a payment is taken from the bank account number, it's classed as a direct debit payment. This has been cancelled now (a day after the transaction occurred on PayPal). However, the transaction says if the payment can't be retrieved via the direct debit, they will use the back up option i.e. the debit card. I have removed my debit card from the account, but upon doing so it said any transactions completed before removing the card will still be charged. Therefore, I assume they will take a payment from this card if the account number / direct debit doesn't work for them.

    I have spoken to their fraud department at least 4 or 5 times today alone, speaking to different agents each time. Each one tended to give different opinions, however the last call I was told it has been escalated to their 'senior team', i.e. people with more powers apparently. But they also said it's unlikely they will be able to dispute the payment and thus it's unlikely it can be resolved. Basically said I have to lump it, which is ridiculous. Anyone with half a brain can surely see this is a fraudulent order... a random gift of 350 dollars to a random name in the USA is very odd. It's not as though the receiver is losing out on anything here either, so reverting the 'gift' shouldn't be a problem, but apparently it is.

    In summary, I will have to pay the negative balance if that's what it comes to, as without PayPal, my source of income will be tarnished as they will probably ban both my accounts or limit them at least. This is a really stressful situation for me to be in... I don't want to have to pay the payment back to PayPal as it's a fraudster getting a free $350, but at the same time I can't have my account taken away from me.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th May 18, 10:44 PM
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    boo_star
    Bank and paypal can speak with each other and confirm things like location, cookies and IP address that was used. If your debit card or credit card was linked to your paypal then whoever sent the paypal gained unlawful access to your account to send(have you changed your password and security questions), Paypal will be able to see this! And can give that info to the bank who might also check it against your online banking information to see if it matches.


    Maybe paypal should start using OTP for instant payments...
    Originally posted by paragon909
    PayPal wonít do this, their MO is to blame it on one party or the other but never take the hit themselves.
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 10:46 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    Bank and paypal can speak with each other and confirm things like location, cookies and IP address that was used. If your debit card or credit card was linked to your paypal then whoever sent the paypal gained unlawful access to your account to send(have you changed your password and security questions), Paypal will be able to see this! And can give that info to the bank who might also check it against your online banking information to see if it matches.


    Maybe paypal should start using OTP for instant payments...
    Originally posted by paragon909
    I thought that too, but Natwest told me today that they never contact PayPal and they can't interfere with them whatsoever. Basically said I have to deal with PayPal to solve it and Natwest won't be helping me out one bit.

    I have changed my password and questions, my account is full secure now for sure. The 'fraud team' at PayPal have deemed the transaction to be legit and seem to think that at 6AM I sent $350 to a random email address located in the USA. I certainly did not, and would never send a gifted payment of that stature to anyone. They have already processed two claims and both have been declined, so I'm pretty stuck here. There's a third claim gone to a 'superior team', so I am just really hoping they can amend it for me. If not, I think I'm out of luck. Really sad to see that PayPal or Natwest are allowing this sort of activity to happen so easily.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th May 18, 10:51 PM
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    boo_star
    I thought that too, but Natwest told me today that they never contact PayPal and they can't interfere with them whatsoever. Basically said I have to deal with PayPal to solve it and Natwest won't be helping me out one bit.

    I have changed my password and questions, my account is full secure now for sure. The 'fraud team' at PayPal have deemed the transaction to be legit and seem to think that at 6AM I sent $350 to a random email address located in the USA. I certainly did not, and would never send a gifted payment of that stature to anyone. They have already processed two claims and both have been declined, so I'm pretty stuck here. There's a third claim gone to a 'superior team', so I am just really hoping they can amend it for me. If not, I think I'm out of luck. Really sad to see that PayPal or Natwest are allowing this sort of activity to happen so easily.
    Originally posted by MrMotivate
    NatWest have limited powers here.

    They canít just pull money back whenever they want. But their explanation is complete nonsense.
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 10:55 PM
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    MrMotivate
    NatWest have limited powers here.

    They canít just pull money back whenever they want. But their explanation is complete nonsense.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    Understandable yeah. I just thought there would be some system in place for when a fraudulent transaction is made using my account details on a website/business.

    I was just a bit miffed when they said they don't interfere with PayPal because they're a big business and I can only hope to solve it with them directly. However if it was a smaller business I bet they would have been happy to assist me. Just seems a bit unreasonable really. I always thought a fraudulent transaction could be investigated no matter what, but Natwest do things differently. Perhaps all banks are the same, but I read online that a chargeback can be done via your bank which is why I tried it out myself.
    • paragon909
    • By paragon909 9th May 18, 11:15 PM
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    paragon909
    I would update the claim as we speak. And demand to know the IP address and what location was located when the payment was authorised. Surely this is unusual activity, Being 6am is neither here nor there according to paypal, They won't see that being a factor.

    Paypal wouldn't normally just allow a customer to do this, Mostly all funds now adays are held for 21 days on the receiving account, Unless they sell 1000s of stuff on Ebay etc. If it's fraud paypal normally act quite quickly on this.

    Seems a rather strange figure.
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 11:25 PM
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    MrMotivate
    I would update the claim as we speak. And demand to know the IP address and what location was located when the payment was authorised. Surely this is unusual activity, Being 6am is neither here nor there according to paypal, They won't see that being a factor.

    Paypal wouldn't normally just allow a customer to do this, Mostly all funds now adays are held for 21 days on the receiving account, Unless they sell 1000s of stuff on Ebay etc. If it's fraud paypal normally act quite quickly on this.

    Seems a rather strange figure.
    Originally posted by paragon909
    I would update the claim but there isn't one on my account. The 'claim' is being done in the background by PayPal i.e. their own private investigation. All I can do right now is hope that they e-mail me back regarding the matter soon, they said they'd be doing it today but hasn't happened.

    The only claim on my account is for this same case - it was an agent who today tried to open an 'item not received case' on the order, but they got half way through it and decided they couldn't finish it off as it was a friends/family option. The claim is still showing on my account as being open but it can't be viewed and simply opens an error messages when clicked.

    Yeah seems odd, I sell and buy a lot using PayPal, so that may be a factor as to why they've taken the money from my account instantly. The scammer has already received the payment as it's not pending, it's fully completed.

    They seem a bit reluctant to give me anything information as to why they came to the conclusion that it's not suspicious.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th May 18, 11:26 PM
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    boo_star
    Understandable yeah. I just thought there would be some system in place for when a fraudulent transaction is made using my account details on a website/business.

    I was just a bit miffed when they said they don't interfere with PayPal because they're a big business and I can only hope to solve it with them directly. However if it was a smaller business I bet they would have been happy to assist me. Just seems a bit unreasonable really. I always thought a fraudulent transaction could be investigated no matter what, but Natwest do things differently. Perhaps all banks are the same, but I read online that a chargeback can be done via your bank which is why I tried it out myself.
    Originally posted by MrMotivate
    I think itís just a case of an advisor trying to make it simple for the perceived plebs rather than company policy.

    Explaining debtor/creditor relationships and Visa chargeback rules to the average customer wonít end well.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th May 18, 9:20 AM
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    18cc
    I think it is important to understand (and I'm sure possibly you already know this) but there are two relationships here involved

    normally if you pay for goods using a debit card then your bank can do a chargeback and will get involved if there is any fraud etc etc

    however where PayPal is concerned the relationship is strictly PayPal and the bank - the bank have no interest and indeed no legal requirements to police what happens between PayPal and the customer.

    that is why you have a lot less protection if you use PayPal - your bank will say 'you gave Paypal authority to debit your bank account or your card they are doing this we have done nothing wrong' and indeed they are right

    i would caution anybody about paying with PayPal as the only protection you have is the PayPal buyer protection etc and you have no protection whatsoever that you would normally have if you use a credit card or debit card direct with the merchant

    I would abandon talking to NatWest they are in the right here in that they have honoured all the PayPal requests your complaint is strictly with PayPal and the fact that this money has fortunately gone missing

    by the way you can turn on two Factor authentication on your PayPal account I have it on mine in that they send you a text every time you log on with a code so nobody can log on to your account even if they find the password out
    • soulsaver
    • By soulsaver 10th May 18, 11:50 AM
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    soulsaver
    PayPal probably won't get into a protracted investigation. Lots of buyers use 'gift' to circumnavigate fees for 'goods'.
    Some of them:
    a) receive the goods and have a problem with it;
    Or b) don't receive the goods (scammed, or lost in transit);
    Or c) receive the goods, but try to scam the seller by trying to recover the cost under PP's buyer protection.

    All of these will fit with your story, but PP won't refund because they'll see it 'fits' with their experience/probability you bought something that was (say) on eBay, paid as 'gift' after the seller has agreed to cancel the eBay sale, have split the saved fees with the seller and are avoiding the normally additional PP fees - it's a well known scam against PP & eBay... and sellers.
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 12:39 PM
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    MrMotivate
    I think it is important to understand (and I'm sure possibly you already know this) but there are two relationships here involved

    normally if you pay for goods using a debit card then your bank can do a chargeback and will get involved if there is any fraud etc etc

    however where PayPal is concerned the relationship is strictly PayPal and the bank - the bank have no interest and indeed no legal requirements to police what happens between PayPal and the customer.

    that is why you have a lot less protection if you use PayPal - your bank will say 'you gave Paypal authority to debit your bank account or your card they are doing this we have done nothing wrong' and indeed they are right

    i would caution anybody about paying with PayPal as the only protection you have is the PayPal buyer protection etc and you have no protection whatsoever that you would normally have if you use a credit card or debit card direct with the merchant

    I would abandon talking to NatWest they are in the right here in that they have honoured all the PayPal requests your complaint is strictly with PayPal and the fact that this money has fortunately gone missing

    by the way you can turn on two Factor authentication on your PayPal account I have it on mine in that they send you a text every time you log on with a code so nobody can log on to your account even if they find the password out
    Originally posted by 18cc
    Thanks for your response. I see your point with regards to Natwest, and I have taken them out of the equation for this case, as clearly they are not obliged to assist me anyway.

    I will certainly look into the two factor authentication. I am led to believe the sender somehow logged in using my PC, possible some sort of trojan/malware. I've never had this sort of issue though as I like to think I'm pretty tech-savvy! I have sent photos to PayPal with evidence of this after completing a full scan. The agent advised me that if I could send him photos of a full PC scan, that he could approve my case. Avast, they declined the case twice.

    I phoned twice today. First guy was unhelpful and just got me off the line as quick as he could, saying there's nothing he can do, it's been declined etc.

    I called again and got through to a woman, I explained the photos I had sent in and asked for documentation to prove that it wasn't unauthorised. I explained I would be using this documentation for my police report. I then explained about the agent who told me about the virus scan photos, and asked if she could view them and check they had been received. She then viewed the photos and confirmed they had them, but told me the fraud team had NOT seen the photos or used them. So now another ticket has been opened where hopefully they will see these photos... I did ask to speak to the fraud team myself, but I was informed they have no contact details and it's impossible to speak to them.

    If this ticket fails, I am destined to give up on this matter. All I can do is report it to Action Fraud so it can go on file, but I know that won't get me my money back ever. So I'm down $353.50 and have little to no money to last me the rest of the month. A real tough situation to be in.
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