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    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 12th Apr 18, 5:58 PM
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    masterminion
    Calculating Weekly Pay When Working Irregular Hours
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 18, 5:58 PM
    Calculating Weekly Pay When Working Irregular Hours 12th Apr 18 at 5:58 PM
    Hello,

    My first post here so hello to everyone.

    I need some help and clarification regarding calculating the weekly pay for the purpose of redundancy when working irregular hours. Pretty much all the information I found online including the one on the WWW.GOV.UK website (clicky) on the topic of 'Working out Your Pay' (I am sorry but I cannot post links at this point) indicates that it is average of the 12 weeks period so this is quite clear. It also says that this is a 12 week period leading to the day the notice period starts. However, when I called ACAS to get some extra advice I was advised that this a 12 week period leading to the end of the employment (the last day at work). I did double check this with the adviser and he was convinced that was the case. So that's why I am a little bit confused.

    Does anyone have any experience with similar calculations? Do you know if there are any special circumstances under which the calculation date would be the last day of the employment rater than the day before the notice period starts as indicated online?

    Thank you very much for your input.
    Last edited by masterminion; 21-04-2018 at 3:49 PM.
Page 1
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 13th Apr 18, 7:36 AM
    • 32,754 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 18, 7:36 AM
    • #2
    • 13th Apr 18, 7:36 AM
    The law on this is in the employment act

    "weeks Pay" "relevant date" "calculation date"

    are the main terms you are looking at

    you need to piece together bits of the act from a few places.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/contents

    redundancy starts here
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/part/XI

    weeks pay starts here
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/part/XIV/chapter/II

    I think S.226.5 applies and you work back from that to S.162


    Where the calculation is for the purposes of section 162, the calculation date is!!!8212;

    F9(a). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    (b)if by virtue of subsection (5) of section 145 a date is to be treated for certain purposes as the relevant date which is later than the relevant date as defined by the previous provisions of that section, the relevant date as so defined, and

    (c)otherwise, the date specified in subsection (6).

    (6)The date referred to in subsections (3)(c) and (5)(c) is the date on which notice would have been given had!!!8212;

    (a)the contract been terminable by notice and been terminated by the employer giving such notice as is required by section 86 to terminate the contract, and

    (b)the notice expired on the effective date of termination, or the relevant date,

    (whether or not those conditions were in fact fulfilled).
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 13th Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    masterminion
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    Thank you very much. Just need get my head around it and piece it together as I am not great with things like that and getting easily confused. Cheers.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 14th Apr 18, 6:37 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 18, 6:37 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 18, 6:37 AM
    I guess the reason you are asking is because it makes a significant difference to the final No.

    I have not read this stuff for some time so can't be sure as I forgot what I decided last time.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
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    masterminion
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 18, 2:56 PM
    Yes, it looks like it does. The difference is not huge but definitely something to bear in mind.

    I have tried to figure out how it works by putting everything from your earlier message together and still am not 100% sure. I think I just got more confused now. Chances are I need more coffee and fresh start.
    Last edited by masterminion; 14-04-2018 at 2:58 PM.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 14th Apr 18, 3:08 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    masterminion
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 18, 3:08 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 18, 3:08 PM
    Oh, forgot to ask one more thing. Would it be a good idea to post the question at CAB section of the forum to get some clarification or do their representatives also monitor other sections around here? Cheers.
    • anamenottaken
    • By anamenottaken 14th Apr 18, 3:59 PM
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    anamenottaken
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 18, 3:59 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 18, 3:59 PM
    Oh, forgot to ask one more thing. Would it be a good idea to post the question at CAB section of the forum to get some clarification or do their representatives also monitor other sections around here? Cheers.
    Originally posted by masterminion
    You'll find the last thread in the CAB section is from 2012. Having that was a trial which didn't continue. I haven't noticed an official CAB representative posting for a very long time.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 14th Apr 18, 5:57 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    masterminion
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 18, 5:57 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 18, 5:57 PM
    You'll find the last thread in the CAB section is from 2012. Having that was a trial which didn't continue. I haven't noticed an official CAB representative posting for a very long time.
    Originally posted by anamenottaken
    Good point. Thank you. Haven't noticed how old the threads are over there.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Apr 18, 3:59 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 18, 3:59 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 18, 3:59 AM
    OK let me work through my thoughts.

    Starting with 162.
    Amount of a redundancy payment.
    That determines the number of weeks pay based on the relevant date

    then move onto 226
    Rights on termination.
    redundancy is a termination (162)

    (5)Where the calculation is for the purposes of section 162, the calculation date is—


    (b)if by virtue of subsection (5) of section 145 a date is to be treated for certain purposes as the relevant date which is later than the relevant date as defined by the previous provisions of that section, the relevant date as so defined, and
    (c)otherwise, the date specified in subsection (6).


    back to S.145.(5)Where—

    (a)the contract of employment is terminated by the employer, and

    (b)the notice required by section 86 to be given by an employer would, if duly given on the material date, expire on a date later than the relevant date (as defined by the previous provisions of this section),

    for the purposes of sections 155, 162(1) and 227(3) the later date is the relevant date.
    (6)In subsection (5)(b) “the material date” means—

    (a)the date when notice of termination was given by the employer, or

    (b)where no notice was given, the date when the contract of employment was terminated by the employer.


    Section 86 is about statutory notice, what this bit says is if you don't get at least your statutory notice then you count that to determine the date for calculating the No. of weeks(162.1) and what is known as the "relevant date".

    we can now go back to 226.5, where that referes to s226.6

    (6)The date referred to in subsections (3)(c) and (5)(c) is the date on which notice would have been given had—
    (a)the contract been terminable by notice and been terminated by the employer giving such notice as is required by section 86 to terminate the contract, and
    (b)the notice expired on the effective date of termination, or the relevant date,


    what that says is the date on which statutory notice would or could have been given to reach the relevant date.

    MY conclusion is that the calculation date is the date you would have been given statutory notice(not contractual).

    If terminated without notice it becomes the termination date and the relevant date the one used to calculate redundancy is later.

    Not sure if that is clear yet.

    trying to simplify if you get proper notice and work it(or garden leave) you work back from the end date by the statutory notice to get the calculations date.

    If you get PILON(full or part) it gets a bit more complicated.

    Statutory notice is 1 week per year on the date it is given so can be less than the years of service for redundancy.

    once you have the calculation date you can then work back further to get the pay due, that starts at s.220.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 15th Apr 18, 10:35 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    masterminion
    Not sure if that is clear yet.

    trying to simplify if you get proper notice and work it(or garden leave) you work back from the end date by the statutory notice to get the calculations date.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Yes, this couldn't be any more clearer. Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. This is exactly in line with the information from www.gov.uk (clicky) and Citizen Advice Bureau (clicky) web sites. After reading those before contacting ACAS I was convinced this is how it worked. I am not sure why the ACAS adviser told me it was a termination date, unless they assumed that I was leaving my job with immediate effect. I thought it was best to double check. One way or another I am glad to have this clarified and once again thank you for your help.

    Also, thank you for the notes regarding PILON, It doesn't look like I will be offered PILON actually and was asked to work my notice period out at another branch since my place of work was closed down. Out of curiosity, I checked this and it wouldn't affect the redundancy payment in my case anyway.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by masterminion; 21-04-2018 at 3:50 PM.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 17th Apr 18, 12:44 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    masterminion
    One more question.

    Say, I was given a statutory 12-week notice 2 weeks ago with an official termination date at the end of June. It means that for the purpose of redundancy calculation I will take the average of 12 weeks prior to the day I was given the notice. That's logical. But what happens if after 3 weeks I renegotiate my notice period and me and the employer agree that I leave with immediate effect? Does it mean that I will receive a new termination notice or is my initial notice going to be altered? The reason I am asking is because if I will be issued a new termination letter this means that the calculation date will also change which means that my redundancy pay could change as well.

    Thanks,
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Apr 18, 1:36 AM
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    getmore4less
    Usually the same notice date is used and the statutory notice period stays the same dates along with the calculation date.

    You get paid what you agreed for the rest of the notice period.
    • masterminion
    • By masterminion 26th Apr 18, 12:13 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    masterminion
    After my request to shorten the notice period was accepted, it seems like my employer actually took the termination date rather than the notice date to get the calculation done. I still need to double check this as I haven't received the detailed calculation but it looks like this could be the case.

    Also, does anyone know if additional BH and overtime payments should be included in the 12-week calculation or not? I get double BH pay and also additional payment when working over certain number of hours a week and I'm not 100% sure if that should be included in the calculation or not.

    Thank you.
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