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  • FIRST POST
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 26th Feb 18, 1:35 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 1Thanks
    wicklamucker
    newbie PCN lease car scotland
    • #1
    • 26th Feb 18, 1:35 PM
    newbie PCN lease car scotland 26th Feb 18 at 1:35 PM
    Hi all, tried to encapsulate all in title... have been through the newbie thread but still not 100% on where i stand.

    Background - work in a scottish city, had a company car (relinquished last friday) and have, on occasion, parked near the office in bays reserved for residents. On opposite side there are public bays but signage is poor (no entrance signs and sign by bay where i parked just reads private parking - refer to other signs for terms and conditions)....
    The details shall follow, but probably slightly complicated further by the fact that some colleagues and i have also used photocopied permits....
    At the start of last November i recieved a windscreen PCN - ignored it and subsequently lease company forwarded on NTK - i was happy on that occasion to (successfully) appeal directly there and then on the basis that that particular PCN stated no contravention....

    This time....
    29/11/17 recieved windscreen PCN with contravention of 'photo copied permit'
    duly ignored it
    23/02/18 recieved email from lease company copying 'Notice to Keeper or Hirer' which they recieved 12/02/18 (dated 02/02/18) from debt collector. This states £100 outstanding, recieved lease company details from DVLA using Reasonable Cause. Asks to advise of driver. Mentions that 'the signage, which is clearly displayed at hte entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, the car park is managed by P4Parking (UK) Ltd and details the terms and conditions of the car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound'.

    Unsure of where i stand due to
    a) the photocopied permit
    b) POFA 2012 doesnt apply to Scotland.....

    Can anyone please advise?
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Feb 18, 2:10 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:10 PM
    • #2
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:10 PM
    As a lease car driver you should NEVER ignore a windscreen PCN of any description.

    Normally in Scotland a registered keeper of a car should (ignore private PCNs but not Council/Police ones!), but it is unsafe with lease cars, in case the fleet manager is an idiot who pays it.

    Should have written to dispute the debt, so it never went to your lease firm, in case they just paid it (plus an admin fee). Lucky that didn't happen.

    Anyway, now write as lessee to dispute the debt but you will not get POPLA in Scotland. Use the lease/hire version of lessee/hirer appeal, written by Edna Basher, linked at the bottom of post #1 of the sticky, and edit the PPC name and lease hire firm name to suit, and remove any line that asks for a POPLA code.

    Then sit tight, ignore the demands, and complain LOUDLY to your MP and the landowner, and Trading Standards too.
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 26th Feb 18, 2:27 PM
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    wicklamucker
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:27 PM
    • #3
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:27 PM
    many thanks for that, yup thankful they didnt pay it up...

    as an add on - im guessing for now i dont need to add anything about detail of signage etc??

    In terms of the sit tight part and ignoring demands etc.... where could that possibly go?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Feb 18, 2:34 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:34 PM
    • #4
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:34 PM
    Ignoring debt collector letters is the same as ignoring junk mail! They go nowhere because the debt collector cannot start 'parking charge' claims. Only the PPC could (rare in this case).

    The NEWBIES thread post #2 tells you the Google search to do, that tells you how many court cases any named PPC have done in recent years.

    Do that search, see what the BMPA says about them. P4Parking are not big in court IMHO, and we win 99% of cases defended well on this forum!

    Worst case scenario - as long as people do NOT (of course) ignore a court claim or move house without telling the PPC the new address, and therefore miss court papers - is that you'd defend and likely win a small claim case.

    If a rare case is lost at a hearing (very worst case scenario, highly unlikely) you'd then finally pay about £150 - £200 within 30 days. No huge costs, no effect on credit rating, no CCJ, no repercussions at all. We only saw TWO lose last year when forum-assisted. No big deal!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-02-2018 at 2:37 PM.
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 26th Feb 18, 2:55 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    wicklamucker
    • #5
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:55 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Feb 18, 2:55 PM
    thanks again for the assistance with this -
    have looked through the Edna Basher template, but that still refers to POFA which i believe only is relevent to England and Scotland?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 26th Feb 18, 3:35 PM
    • 37,579 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:35 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:35 PM
    thanks again for the assistance with this -
    have looked through the Edna Basher template, but that still refers to POFA which i believe only is relevent to England and Scotland?
    Originally posted by wicklamucker
    The POFA 2012 only applies to England and Wales, therefore there is no keeper liability outside those two countries. Only the driver can be held liable in Scotland and NI, which is why you never reveal the driver's identity. Be aware that one Scottish MP is trying to change this, Murdo Fraser. Make sure you don't vote for him.

    So, you could modify Edna's template to state this if you wish, and tell the PPC to only contact the driver from now on, who you will not be naming.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 26-02-2018 at 3:38 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 26th Feb 18, 3:39 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    wicklamucker
    • #7
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:39 PM
    • #7
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:39 PM
    as i thought...

    which more or less makes EdnaBashers excellent template redundant for lease cars in Scotland....

    any further suggestions as to how it can be taken further forward - or am i best placed just ignoring (the lease hire company have passed my details to the debt company) ????
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 26th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    wicklamucker
    • #8
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    cheers mate - for some reason i only saw the first sentance of your reply.....

    dont worry dont vote Tory anyway to Murdo can bog off.....

    will reply as you suggest - will post here if i get any further forward.....
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 7th Mar 18, 8:14 AM
    • 10 Posts
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    wicklamucker
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 18, 8:14 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 18, 8:14 AM
    Hi all, emailed the PPC (late) and recieved a response - both copied below.... any suggestions on what i should do now?



    Thank you for taking your time to write us.

    Please note that you are out of allowing time to submit an appeal and this should have been sent to the Appeals Department within the timeframe given.

    You have already provided photographs with the signage at the entrance, and we can see that a “P” sign is installed, and that’s the sign which indicates that you have entered to a private land where parking restrictions apply. We hold photographic evidence of the vehicle parked in close proximity to a “P” sign indicating the private land parking area, and there are numerous signs around with the parking conditions.

    You claim that no signs are in the area which inform the motorists of the parking rules and regulations, however, as the driver knew to put a photocopied permit in the vehicle, we are satisfied that the driver was also aware of the terms of parking.

    This is our final correspondence in regards to this parking charge notice. If you wish the pictorial evidence, please request it from TNC Services.

    Please do not reply to this message via e-mail. This address cannot help with questions or requests.

    Kind Regards,
    Complaints Department
    E-mail: complaints@p4parking.co.uk




    Sent: 06 March 2018 15:53
    To: P4 Parking IA <p4parkingia@p4parking.co.uk>; Complaints <Complaints@p4parking.co.uk>
    Subject: Parking charge

    Dear Sir/Madam,
    Re: PCN ~~~, vehicle reg. ######
    I was alarmed to be issued recently with a threatening letter from TNC Parking Services (ref. P1151135) asking me to pay £100. As the hirer of the vehicle I was therefore the ‘keeper’ of the vehicle which received this purported 'parking charge'. As the incident occurred in Scotland then there can be no transfer of liability to the Registered Keeper as POFA doesn't apply. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.
    The ‘parking charge’ is also unfair because:
    There was insufficient signage. There was no sign at the entrance of the car park.
    I enclose a photo of the entrance to the car park. It shows clearly that there was no sign about the parking charges.
    This clearly contradicts the ‘Notice to Keeper or Hirer’ letter which includes the following incorrect statement:

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN addressed to me immediately, I require the following information with your template rejection:

    1. Does your charge represent damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    2. Please provide dated photos of the signs that you say were on site (both at the entrance and at the car) clearly setting out the terms and conditions, which you contend formed a contract.
    3. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Mar 18, 8:17 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    You cant really do anything. You just have to hope they will only correspond with you from now on.
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 7th Mar 18, 8:44 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    wicklamucker
    you think i should just pay up?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Mar 18, 10:42 AM
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    Umkomaas
    you think i should just pay up?
    Originally posted by wicklamucker
    Nope, because there is nothing that the debt collector can do other than send silly letters.

    P4Parking have never instigated court proceedings in England/Wales, where it is a much easier process than to do so in Scotland.

    So do you reckon you'd be their very first court case anywhere and they would travel up from Larndarn to attend a Sheriff Court in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness (or wherever you are in Scotland), spending hundreds of pounds just to recover £100?

    And if they are crazy enough to try, come back to us on this thread for further advice.

    But to reiterate, we are not a forum that condones in any way fly parking, bad parking or the forging of permits, tickets, blue badges or the like. Those who do this provide landowners with every reason in the world to bring in private parking companies to 'protect' their land. And those who cause this run to us to get them out of the hole they have created for themselves. Just saying .....
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Mar 18, 12:22 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    What part of my response suggested you should pay?

    Why do poeple jump to "dont do anything" meaning "pay"?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Mar 18, 1:22 PM
    • 62,736 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    you think i should just pay up?
    Originally posted by wicklamucker
    Hahaha! Where on this ENTIRE forum do you see that advised?

    NEVER, unless a case is lost in court, which is rare and no big deal.

    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 7th Mar 18, 3:19 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    wicklamucker
    Many thanks all for the advice, i think i was just getting the jitters which i think these coyboys tend to feed off of - funnily enough a colleague of mine has only just paid his despite me telling him to come on here first!

    Umkomass, appreciate that (post edited)
    anyway dont park any more - on the train now
    Last edited by wicklamucker; 08-03-2018 at 8:34 AM. Reason: as per coupon mad suggestion
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Mar 18, 4:50 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    I would delete that if I were you...prying eyes and all that.
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 10th Apr 18, 5:36 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    wicklamucker
    ....so I have just had an email from the company facilities manager stating that she has recieved another pcn for the same incident, stating that the charge is now £179 and failure to pay will result in court proceedings. I have asked her to pass it on to me.

    Am i right in saying that they cannot seek greater than £100, and that they should only be contacting me and not the company (they do have my details)???
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Apr 18, 9:03 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Am i right in saying that they cannot seek greater than £100
    That's a Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Scneduke 4 stipulation. PoFA Schedule 4 doesn't apply in Scotland.

    and that they should only be contacting me and not the company (they do have my details)???
    For every PCN they issue they must acquire new details from the DVLA, who can only release registered keeper details shown on the vehicle's V5C.

    By the way, one question mark (?) is sufficient to indicate a question is being asked.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Apr 18, 10:06 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    If the letters keep coming to the company then the company are still being held liable.

    Have they not completed the necessary transfer of liability form (naming you and giving your address as the lessee/hirer of that vehicle) if not, why not? THEY MUST. NOT just 'pass it to you'.
    • wicklamucker
    • By wicklamucker 11th Apr 18, 11:28 AM
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    • 1 Thanks
    wicklamucker
    Im not sure if they ever completed the transfer of liability form. I will check.
    Does this change anything at all?

    In my past correspondence with the cowboys i did state that i was the hirer of the vehicle.
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