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  • FIRST POST
    • ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • By ThrownOutTheAsylum 25th Feb 18, 1:09 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 12Thanks
    ThrownOutTheAsylum
    Dropped in it by driver of my car
    • #1
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:09 PM
    Dropped in it by driver of my car 25th Feb 18 at 1:09 PM
    This is all a bit rushed, so forgive me if I don't get everything right first time.

    I've been deprived of a chance to fight this using the templates here.

    I have just come back from a long time away to find the following:
    @ Someone who used my car (legally & with permission) parked at a Greenwich car park run by Civil Enforcement Ltd some 2 months ago.
    @ They had problems with the machine (see below for more details), paid enough to cover their parking and inadvertently put in the wrong registration.
    @ Civil Enforcement Ltd sent me, the registered keeper, a PCN because their ANPR camera couldn't find the registration entered.
    @ The PCN was intercepted by the driver and he/she appealed in my name.
    @ Civil Enforcement Ltd rejected the appeal with a letter dated 12/02/18 giving me a POPLA number and 14 days of grace (running out today?) to pay the 'reduced rate' of £60 rather than the penal rate of £100.
    @ The driver has just given me the rejection letter, had a little breakdown and has effectively dumped this on me.

    I searched on here and see that Civil Enforcement Ltd may be right on the technical aspects of the wrong registration and are likely to carry this through, taking me to court as necessary.

    As far as I can see, their paperwork is in order.

    Unfortunately I do not live near Greenwich and the cost in time going there is currently too much for me. I do, though, object to paying out £60 when the driver clearly paid an amount to cover their parking.

    I found the original ticket with all the other paper in the car's door pocket. It supports that the driver put in £2.50 for one hours parking ("£2.50 for one hour") but the machine only registered £2.00 and gave a ticket for 20 minutes, not the 40 minutes expected from the machine instructions' wording of "£1.00 for 20 minutes".

    I'm tempted to pay the £60 to avoid all the hassle, particularly as the PCN may be legally correct despite its unfairness. Before I pay up and kick the cat to get rid of my frustration, can someone with more experience and knowledge than me advise me if I have a chance of getting round this?

    For example, is the fact that the machine at least took £2.00 and gave only 20 minutes also a breach of contract, either because it should have given 40 minutes or not taken the extra £1 over the 20 minutes it gave?

    Thanks in advance for any help.
    Last edited by ThrownOutTheAsylum; 25-02-2018 at 1:12 PM.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 25th Feb 18, 1:19 PM
    • 10,006 Posts
    • 9,834 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:19 PM
    • #2
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:19 PM
    Why not name the driver. If they are taken to court, imo, they are unlikely to lose if the problem was caused by a faulty ticket mabhine. Read this

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (who take hundreds of these cases to court, and nearly always lose), who have also been reported to the regulatory authority.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 25th Feb 18, 1:22 PM
    • 1,900 Posts
    • 2,577 Thanks
    Castle
    • #3
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:22 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:22 PM
    As you have a POPLA code, you can use that to appeal.
    • ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • By ThrownOutTheAsylum 25th Feb 18, 1:39 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • #4
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:39 PM
    • #4
    • 25th Feb 18, 1:39 PM
    Thanks.

    As tempting as it is to do so, dropping this on the driver will be counter-productive.

    From a search on POPLA in my circumstances, I gather that they stick to their interpretation of the law and ignore the obvious moral and common-sense reasons why finding for CEL would be patently unjust. POPLA are staffed by lawyers who get paid whether the law is an !!! or not.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 25th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,500 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #5
    • 25th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    POPLA are staffed by lawyers...
    Originally posted by ThrownOutTheAsylum
    Really?? Who told you that?

    Do a PoPLA appeal.
    There are plenty of CEL appeals written in the last few months. You may even find one for your Greenwich car park.
    .
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 25th Feb 18, 2:46 PM
    • 4,273 Posts
    • 6,070 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #6
    • 25th Feb 18, 2:46 PM
    • #6
    • 25th Feb 18, 2:46 PM
    Have you checked to see if the paperwork complys with the POFA?
    Have you contacted the car park owner?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • waamo
    • By waamo 25th Feb 18, 5:05 PM
    • 4,232 Posts
    • 5,552 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 25th Feb 18, 5:05 PM
    • #7
    • 25th Feb 18, 5:05 PM
    POPLA is actually staffed by trainee nail technicians and wannabe soft porn authors. No I'm not joking.

    The driver has done everything correctly so far to get you both of this fee. Read the Newbies thread at the top of this board and see what goes in to a successful POPLA appeal.
    This space for hire.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 25th Feb 18, 5:43 PM
    • 10,006 Posts
    • 9,834 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 25th Feb 18, 5:43 PM
    • #8
    • 25th Feb 18, 5:43 PM
    Thanks. I gather that they stick to their interpretation of the law and ignore the obvious moral and common-sense reasons .
    Originally posted by ThrownOutTheAsylum

    Yes, but their interpretation of the law is very rarely that of a judge, who can, and does, apply common sense.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • By ThrownOutTheAsylum 25th Feb 18, 6:38 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • #9
    • 25th Feb 18, 6:38 PM
    • #9
    • 25th Feb 18, 6:38 PM
    Thanks all. I did a search to find something directly relevant but couldn't find anything.

    As time is so short for me I've not been able to contact the land owner or do other work.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 25th Feb 18, 6:47 PM
    • 19,261 Posts
    • 24,477 Thanks
    Redx
    stick to post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread and draft a popla appeal on the standard legal arguments used by most people who come here

    POPLA are not staffed by "lawyers", even the old London Councils popla wasnt apart from Henry Greenslade (a barrister)

    best advice to give you ?

    DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 25th Feb 18, 6:53 PM
    • 9,270 Posts
    • 9,500 Thanks
    KeithP
    We've all got other things to do, but if you were to search the POPLA Decisions thread for the word greenwich you will find three posts referencing it.

    The first of those posts returned is a CEL Greenwich High Road car park.

    Look at the linked PoPLA appeal text and it shouldn't need much tweeking to fit your situation.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Feb 18, 8:52 PM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,517 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Civil Enforcement Ltd rejected the appeal with a letter dated 12/02/18 giving me a POPLA number and 14 days of grace (running out today?) to pay the 'reduced rate' of £60 rather than the penal rate of £100.
    So what about 14 days. You won't be paying a penny! Don't you think £60 is a penal rate? I do!

    You have two whole weeks, including weekends, to simply copy another CEL POPLA appeal, where the keeper has appealed and the driver is not admitted.

    Now, what did the appellant write in your name? Please tell us they did NOT pretend you were the driver and write like that! As long as they didn't, this is so easy to win at POPLA it will be laughable.

    Calm down, you have until mid March to read a few CEL POPLA appeals and show us yours. KeithP even told you exactly where to find one that you could almost copy verbatim.

    For a keeper where the driver wasn't admitted, CEL ones are 100% winnable. Yes, every time.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 25-02-2018 at 8:54 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • By ThrownOutTheAsylum 26th Feb 18, 8:20 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    ThrownOutTheAsylum
    Thank you all.
    Firstly, to clarify:
    1. I did spend an hour searching here, including the POPLA appeal thread, before I wrote. Of the 3 cases that came up on the POPLA appeal thread, I dismissed 2 as they were for an NCP car park and judged the other not to answer my case as it was based on a broken machine. My first reaction was to to research the other points on that case, but decided that because time was running out I should post on my specifics.
    2. I also had a quick look at the POPLA website and read their 2017 annual report, which had some very interesting statistics on CEL, such as: of 4495 appeals, 2585 were withdrawn, 1472 were refused and only 252 allowed).
    3. I took POPLA having lawyers from another website. Checking the POPLA annual report's description of its team, I see that POPLA are very vague, suggesting that I was therefore wrong. My apologies.

    Secondly, on one of the points above, the driver (more specifically, the person I let use my car and who paid for the ticket; he/she now tells me he/she may not have been driving, having let his/her friend drive) has told me that he/she pretended to be me in that appeal and just copied a template from here, but doesn't remember which one.

    Thirdly, and more importantly, I have decided to appeal to POPLA.

    Thank you for your help and advice; I will read all your sources in slower time.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Feb 18, 12:46 AM
    • 61,622 Posts
    • 74,517 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK, so just search the forum for CEL POPLA, and copy one!

    We win ALL of them v CEL.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • waamo
    • By waamo 27th Feb 18, 7:47 AM
    • 4,232 Posts
    • 5,552 Thanks
    waamo
    Your case is no different to any other. Find a recent winning appeal and cut and paste it.
    This space for hire.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 27th Feb 18, 10:44 AM
    • 10,006 Posts
    • 9,834 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.


    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (who take hundreds of these cases to court, and nearly always lose), who have also been reported to the regulatory authority.


    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.


    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41


    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ThrownOutTheAsylum
    • By ThrownOutTheAsylum 17th Apr 18, 1:38 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    ThrownOutTheAsylum
    Thank you everyone. My POPLA appeal was successful, with their failing to show that they had the landowners permission even before the assessor considered my other grounds.


    DecisionSuccessful

    Assessor summary of operator case
    The operator’s case is that the appellant did not make a payment in accordance with the terms displayed on the signage.

    Assessor summary of your case
    The appellant’s case is that the parking contract was made null and void by the operator. He states that the motorist paid £2.50, however the payment machine only registered £2.00 on the ticket. The appellant states that parking costs £1 for 20 minutes and £2.50 for an hour. Therefore, he believes that the motorist should have been given 40 minutes of parking time. The appellant adds that the payment machine also did not accept the correct vehicle registration number. The appellant states that there is no keeper liability as the operator has not complied with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. The appellant states that the signage is improperly and inadequately displayed. The appellant has disputed the accuracy and reliability of the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras. He states that the signage does not clearly state what the ANPR footage will be issued for. The appellant states that the operator has not provided any evidence that it has any interest in the land, or the authority to pursue charges. The appellant states that the sum is extravagant, unconscionable and does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The appellant has provided a photograph of the parking ticket to support his appeal.

    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    While I acknowledge that the appellant has raised a number of grounds for appeal, my report will focus solely on landowner authority as this supersedes the other aspects of the appeal. Section 7.1 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”. The operator has not provided any evidence in response to this ground of appeal. Ultimately, the burden of proof lies with the operator to show that the appellant has not complied with the terms and conditions of the car park. While I acknowledge the operator has provided sufficient evidence of the terms and conditions of the car park, it has not provided any evidence of the landowner authority. As such, I am unable to establish whether the operator has the authority to issue Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) for this car park. Upon consideration of this evidence, I cannot confirm that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly I must allow this appeal.
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