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  • FIRST POST
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 112Posts
    • 102Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work 7th Jan 18 at 11:31 AM
    Hi there,

    My wife is having some issues at a well-known shopping store chain in the UK.

    For the last 10 weeks, she has been suspended on full pay, no one else has been suspended and it has taken the company 10 weeks to respond.

    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?

    I find the whole situation very suspicious, almost like a setup and my wife is taking the blame.

    The statement received has been split into sections below with the proposed responses from my wife.

    FYI names have been changed to protect the guilty

    Thank you and sorry it is a long post

    MrNiceGuy_007


    [Stamement]
    Remit
    To establish whether there are any reasonable grounds to believe that Mini Mouse may have stolen 123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here]
    which may constitute Gross Misconduct and therefore if there is a disciplinary case to answer by Mini Mouse or not.

    Process
    Investigation held with Mini Mouse (frontline colleague) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Donald Duck (Duty Manager) on [date here]
    Documents reviewed: Weekly cash discrepancy report

    General Observations
    Mini Mouse - Frontline Colleague - Suspended

    Findings
    Allegation: That Mini Mouse has stolen 123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here], as she was the only cashier on the till that day between 2pm-7pm.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Incorrect I started work at 15:00 and finished at 18:00. I was not the only person signed on the till that day, Donald took over the till after I finished my shift to serve the last of the customers until about 19:00. Also, the store opens at 08:00 and two other staff members had full access to the till 8 hours before I was even on the premises.
    [Response END]

    As there has been cash loss issues within the store we have put processes in place to monitor cash loss effectively.
    These processes were put into place as there has been cash loss issues within the store and myself (Daisy Duck) store manager wanted to minimise the areas in which the cash loss was occuring. This included making sure that there was only one cashier per till each day to minimise the amount of people using a specific till in one day but also so any cash errors could be quickly resolved.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As explained above I was not the only person on the till that day and therefore someone else must have stolen the cash or made a mistake counting the cash before or after. May I also point out that the money is transferred from the till to the cash office by two different people, therefore I have no control of how the cash is handled before cash is placed and after it is removed from the till.
    [Response END]

    After looking into this report and looking at the cash office balances at the end of the night this being [day] [date] it clearly shows that 123.45 was missing from till 1 once it had been cashed up.


    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal 123.45? why not just 100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.
    [Response END]

    No CCTV covering this specific till or the cash office

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am very surprised to hear this, as Daisy Duck informed me that the cameras were repositioned over the tills after I reported Ursula serving herself and placing money in her pocket. It cannot be fairly stated or even proven the cash was stolen by myself or another member of staff without CCTV.
    [Response END]

    Reviewed all reports available and there are no unusual transactions.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please define an unusual transaction.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Mini Mouse, the cashier on that till on the [date here] at 15.43pm, she was unable to give a reason as to why the till would be down by 123.88. She explained that she always gives the correct change and that she cant explain were the money has gone. When asked has Mini stolen the money she replied 'no I would never steal from the company, lye never stolen in my life.' Mini was unable to remember that there were any unusual transactions that day and therefore there is no explanation as to were the money has gone and therefore we have concluded that the money has been stolen.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am unable to explain how or where the cash has gone and it would be highly unlikely I have given the incorrect change for such a large cash reconciliation error.
    I know with full certainty the cash was not stolen by myself and therefore I can only assume either a counting error or theft has been made by another member of staff.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) and member of management who checked and issued the tills that day. He explained that the tills were checked by himself that morning before they were issued to ensure that the correct amount of 250 was in each till to prevent cash loss. He couldn't explain as to why the till would be down at the end of the night. When asked who else had been on the till that day he replied Mini. Donald was the duty manager that day in charge of cashing up the tills and finalising the safe count.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As previously stated this could be an innocent cash accounting mistake by a trainee member of staff.
    Other than Donald!!!8217;s word, please provide further evidence that precisely 250 was present before my shift. Please note, I have not been informed to count the cash before my shift; therefore I am placing my trust in other people, which has been a mistake.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing 120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please explain under what circumstances would any cash be distributed across different tills, because I find the above statement highly unlikely and does not come under any training provided to date.
    [Response END]

    When he cashed everything up he realised it wasn't in the tills, he then went onto counting the safe twice and it wasn't there so he rang Daffy Duck to ask what to do. He wanted to make Daffy aware of the issues so he didn't come in the next day totally unaware of the cash loss. Donald then confirmed what he should do which is what Daffy had already done and Donald said he would investigate it the following day. He confirms that Donald issued the tills that day and that the tills are checked every morning to ensure that the floats are correct.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As stated above, please provide further evidence that a full amount of 250 was present in the till before I started my shift.
    [Response END]

    Summary
    Till was was Issued however later that day when it was cashed up the till was minus 123.45. the only colleague that had used the till that day was Mini Mouse. Daffy Duck being the trainee supervisor issuing the tills and Donald Duck being the duty manager that day cashing up the tills.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As mentioned in the summary above I can only agree that I was the only person on that till from 15:00 until 18:00 that day, however, I was not the only person to have access to the till on that day. Daffy signed in to issue the till float, I (Mini) served customers and Donald did serve customers until about 19:00 and remove the cash from the till after my shift ended.
    [Response END]

    I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse as she was the only cashier on the till on that day when the cash loss occured and as we have put in measures to monitor cash Ioss effectively this made it easier for the store to monitor as there is only 1 operator per till per day.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    On [day] [date here] when interviewed by Daisy Duck she showed me the till sheet, which did show myself, Daffy Duck and Donald Duck!!!8217;s staff number signed on that day. Where Daisy states one operator per till per day, I recall seeing within the same week four plus staff numbers signed on another till. Therefore the validity of Daisy Duck's statement must be untrue, and apparently, the new measure has not been strictly followed and opens a question of what other procedures are not strictly followed in regards to the tills.
    [Response END]
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 31-01-2018 at 4:57 PM.
Page 5
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 9th Jan 18, 8:27 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 7,619 Thanks
    sangie595
    I'm no expert but there is a big difference between thinking someone may have possibly done something because the sums don't add up and actually being able to prove 100% with evidence that they did.
    If they were sure your wife did something wrong surely she would have been sacked much sooner? It seems odd.
    I'd be worried about the risk of bad references. I think its worth bringing up the point that its unfair to put your wife at a disadvantage because of something untrue. If the company really think your wife committed theft, why don't they bring a criminal prosecution? Probably because they don't have enough proof.
    Originally posted by Fireflyaway
    Regrettably, in employment law terms, it's true. End of.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 31st Jan 18, 4:40 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    MrNiceGuy_007
    Received this today and we are thinking of making an appeal to clear my wife's name.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=116CM3cGs_7aw3aUqQiGBpXWDrL-rVwAN

    Any ideas how to respond or have a good template I could follow?

    Thanks
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 31st Jan 18, 5:06 PM
    • 5,469 Posts
    • 11,346 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Received this today and we are thinking of making an appeal to clear my wife's name.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=116CM3cGs_7aw3aUqQiGBpXWDrL-rVwAN

    Any ideas how to respond or have a good template I could follow?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    What do you actually want? If it was me, I wouldn't respond at all.

    Whilst I am not defending the company at all, the excuse 'management know my log in details.' is flimsy as all get out.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 31st Jan 18, 7:05 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 7,619 Thanks
    sangie595
    Received this today and we are thinking of making an appeal to clear my wife's name.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=116CM3cGs_7aw3aUqQiGBpXWDrL-rVwAN

    Any ideas how to respond or have a good template I could follow?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    How do you plan on clearing it? With new evidence? The name of the person who stole it? An speak will not succeed unless you have something new to tell them.
    • montyrebel
    • By montyrebel 1st Feb 18, 1:42 PM
    • 565 Posts
    • 467 Thanks
    montyrebel
    if i remember without reading back you had stated that the other managers used the same till as your wife. it appears from that letter if they used them they did so using her login details.

    not keeping those details to herself would I am pretty sure be a breach of procedures and possible gross misconduct so she would have been let go for that.

    my advice now is to move on and forget about it
    mortui non mordent
    • aife
    • By aife 1st Feb 18, 6:39 PM
    • 164 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    aife
    if i remember without reading back you had stated that the other managers used the same till as your wife. it appears from that letter if they used them they did so using her login details.

    not keeping those details to herself would I am pretty sure be a breach of procedures and possible gross misconduct so she would have been let go for that.

    my advice now is to move on and forget about it
    Originally posted by montyrebel
    Perhaps , but then surely the other two staff , both senior to her are also at fault.

    Personally , I would appeal , even though it's not likely to be successful, because I wouldn't want to let a false allegation (assuming it is false) go unchallenged.
    I'd also be writing to their head office , for the same reasons
    • aife
    • By aife 1st Feb 18, 6:44 PM
    • 164 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    aife
    Have to say but I agree with the amount being an odd amount to steal! That was my first thought. That being said, a level 2 thief (someone who thinks about it in more depth) may well steal an odd amount to make it look less obvious. So I think that's a moot argument despite the logic behind it.

    I've only ever been "accused" of stealing once, and it was very short-lived as the manager sided with me (some girl took over my till but she needed to use it before I could cash up. In the space of about 10 minutes she had lifted 60). I ended up giving her a hard time all shift because I knew it was her and in the end she cracked. I found the 60 dumped on the pavement outside work when she got a taxi home It did look dodgy that I found it though, but the manager was cool with it.


    .
    Originally posted by stuartJo1989
    I think what this shows is that for all we obsess over evidence , facts and procedures most people's decision making is based on their emotional responses and it's hard to get someone to change their mind
    • aife
    • By aife 1st Feb 18, 6:51 PM
    • 164 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    aife

    also ring up now and join the union, then ask them for advice and someone to come with her to the meetings
    Originally posted by montyrebel
    Most unions have a policy of not offering assistance in cases that started before the member joined.
    This is because a lot of people join when they get into trouble and then cancel their subs. as soon as the situation is resolved
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 1st Feb 18, 9:13 PM
    • 8,287 Posts
    • 6,108 Thanks
    pmduk
    Perhaps , but then surely the other two staff , both senior to her are also at fault.
    Originally posted by aife
    We don't know what, if any disciplinary action has been taken in their cases.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 1st Feb 18, 9:31 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 475 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    I think what this shows is that for all we obsess over evidence , facts and procedures most people's decision making is based on their emotional responses and it's hard to get someone to change their mind
    Originally posted by aife
    Not sure what you mean tbh...
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 1st Feb 18, 9:51 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
    • 7,619 Thanks
    sangie595
    Not sure what you mean tbh...
    Originally posted by stuartJo1989
    It means that they have made a decision. Unless there is tangible proof to the contrary, they won't change that decision.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 1st Feb 18, 9:55 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 475 Thanks
    stuartJo1989
    It means that they have made a decision. Unless there is tangible proof to the contrary, they won't change that decision.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Ah, fair enough!

    Though, thankfully, the manager was right in my scenario!!
    • newatc
    • By newatc 1st Feb 18, 10:02 PM
    • 211 Posts
    • 251 Thanks
    newatc
    Received this today and we are thinking of making an appeal to clear my wife's name.


    Any ideas how to respond or have a good template I could follow?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    It seems unlikely that you are going to succeed at an appeal without new information but if you can accept that (and not extend your sense of injustice) I would appeal on principle, underlining your innocence and keeping the company investing their time.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 1st Feb 18, 10:31 PM
    • 17,197 Posts
    • 38,053 Thanks
    Masomnia
    Received this today and we are thinking of making an appeal to clear my wife's name.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=116CM3cGs_7aw3aUqQiGBpXWDrL-rVwAN

    Any ideas how to respond or have a good template I could follow?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    Imho that's a pretty amateurish effort.

    As others have said they do not need concrete proof, or proof 'beyond reasonable doubt' that your partner stole the money, but they do have to have reasonable belief. To my mind 'you were the main cashier' doesn't provide that, though ultimately it would be up to a tribunal to decide.

    'You couldn't explain where the money went' is irrelevant. Why would she be able to?

    'You had your training'. As if they have to train you not to steal.

    I think it's worth pointing out that others had access to the partner's log in.

    I'd say seek advice but with less than two years service she can't claim unfair dismissal, though she could try to bring a claim for her notice period (ie wrongful dismissal) but that could be a long shot.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • Kayalana99
    • By Kayalana99 2nd Feb 18, 8:26 AM
    • 3,398 Posts
    • 6,074 Thanks
    Kayalana99
    Tbh from a cash office POV it would be very silly for them to wake up one day and say right we're going to see if this person is stealing and then fired someone on their first offense.

    To me this sounds like they have had issues for a while as this is what we do when we have concerns, and put certain people under certain tests to see if they would take the bait.

    I would think this isn't the first time her name has 'flagged' up for this to happen and if she pursues this I'm sure other things would come to light.

    Who would you believe? The person who's name has a constant show on tills that have lost money, or the Duty manager (I believe Donald the only other person on the till?) would have stolen it.

    With the cash error, I can only speak for the system I used to run, but if you were supposed to put 250 in a till and for what ever reason left it 100 short, that 100 would have shown up elsewhere. It's basically a case of theft or nothing because everything is accounted for. As for the '123' it's very common that tills can be up or down by a few pounds so personally would say someone has stolen 120.
    Last edited by Kayalana99; 02-02-2018 at 8:30 AM.
    People don't know what they want until you show them.
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 2nd Feb 18, 8:39 AM
    • 6,450 Posts
    • 11,621 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    No one should have had access to your partners log in, not even managers so how did that come about?

    When I worked in a supermarket our log ins were our employee number and then a random number generator gave us our password, I still remember mine 11 years later! It was a sackable offence to even write your till password down never mind share it with someone else. If a supervisor or manager needed access to your till they either had you sign off and step away (usually for big cash lifts) or they!!!8217;d over ride your !!!8220;Just a till operator!!!8221; status with a supervisor code or managers key.

    Is the situation that your wife claims she wasn!!!8217;t the only person on the till but the till is telling senior management that she was because she handed out her password? If so she!!!8217;s screwed and might as well give up now.
    Bounts, Quidco, Shop and Scan, Receipt Hog, Costco Cashback, Debit card cashback

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    • aife
    • By aife 2nd Feb 18, 12:46 PM
    • 164 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    aife
    Re. the till - perhaps she just didn't log out ?
    And then the question would be was she negligent in just not bothering , or did the manager come along and say 'don't bother with that , just let me jump in quickly ...'
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