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  • FIRST POST
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 6th Jan 18, 7:10 PM
    • 25Posts
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    Pat26
    PCM appeal response as a driver
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 18, 7:10 PM
    PCM appeal response as a driver 6th Jan 18 at 7:10 PM
    I recently appealed and won three PCN issued by PCM at the IAS appeal stage 1. For all three PCNs the common elements were:
    - issued in the same location for not displaying a permit
    - as a result the basis for the appeal was the same - lack of clear signage as per the IPC code of conduct
    - I did not wait for the NTK
    - I said that I was the registered keeper and that I'm liable for the parking charge but wasn't prepared to say who was driving at the time the PCN was issued.
    All three appeals were allowed with the response "The Operator conceded this appeal due to Mitigation."

    There is a fourth PCN (PCN 4) that I have appealed on the same basis as the above three but for this I was the driver and said so. The appeal for this is still on-going and past stage 1. It is my turn to respond. Note that the appeals for above 3 PCNs were lodged after the PCN 4 appeal was lodged with IAS.

    If PCN 4 was issued in the same location as the above three and appealed on the same basis as the appeals that were allowed, can I point this out in my response? Even though I said I was the driver for PCN 4? Will this jeapordise my appeal? Or will it jeapordise the IAS appeals that were already allowed?

    If all the PCNs were issued in the same location and appealed on the same basis shouldn't the outcome be the same no matter who the driver was?

    There is a fifth PCN (PCN 5) which was issued a whilst back. As with all four PCNs above, it was issued in the same location for not displaying a permit. I did not appeal this at all. This has now reached Gladstones. I received the initial letter beginning of Dec requesting payment within 14 days.
    I managed to track down an email address for Gladstones and emailed them saying that PCN 5 was issued in the same location and in similar circumstances as PCN 4 and that PCN 4 is being appealed. I requested an extension to payment window until I received a decision on the PCN 4 appeal. I have not received a response.
    Yesterday received a final reminder to pay dated 29th Dec. I raised an enquiry again requesting an extension to payment window. I intend to write (by post) to Gladstones too with the same request. In this letter can I point out that I my appeals for the first PCNs were allowed stressing that PCN 5 wa issued in the same location for not displaying a permit?

    Note that for all of the above PCNs I was in the bay allocated to me as per the lease and I am the leaseholder. The PCN was issued claiming that a permit was not on display. The site lacks PCM signage/signage that is clearly visible to a driver.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 7:21 PM
    • 58,441 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 7:21 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 18, 7:21 PM
    I recently appealed and won three PCN issued by PCM at the IAS appeal stage 1.
    Well done! Hearing this from you, makes me wonder whether PCM might be a firm who often concede at IAS to avoid some sort of issue, maybe they are sitting on high sanction points.

    INTERESTING!

    But your concerns are PCN 4 and 5.
    If PCN 4 was issued in the same location as the above three and appealed on the same basis as the appeals that were allowed, can I point this out in my response? Even though I said I was the driver for PCN 4? Will this jeapordise my appeal? Or will it jeapordise the IAS appeals that were already allowed?

    If all the PCNs were issued in the same location and appealed on the same basis shouldn't the outcome be the same no matter who the driver was?
    No point mentioning the other ones at all, and no, they don't have to have the same outcome.

    I requested an extension to payment window until I received a decision on the PCN 4 appeal. I have not received a response.
    OK, but you won't be paying either of them! Please stop begging for time to pay (effectively)!

    In this letter can I point out that I my appeals for the first PCNs were allowed stressing that PCN 5 wa issued in the same location for not displaying a permit?
    No point and I think telling them you have collected 5, isn't a good idea at all. Don't mention the others.

    Note that for all of the above PCNs I was in the bay allocated to me as per the lease and I am the leaseholder
    You own your flat? Why are you even displaying a permit, if you are entitled to use your bay exclusively, and why haven't the residents kicked PCM (and/or the managing Agent that let them in) out yet? Seriously, this is not a service you residents gain anything from, kick them out.

    Read the threads by Daniel san and hairray - no links, go & find them from the usernames & read them!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-01-2018 at 11:52 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 8th Jan 18, 10:22 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 10:22 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 10:22 AM
    Many thanks for the prompt reply

    With PCM 4 - the IAS appeal is still on going
    I did mention that as per my lease the parking bay is allocated to me and I have the right to park there. Is it worth stressing this in my next response and saying that I have the docs to prove this? I don't really want to share my lease with PCM as there is no way to know who has access to what on this site.
    I also have the right to enjoy my property peacefully and quietly and the whole PCM permit process is essentially hindering this.
    It's difficult to discuss the details of this appeal without going into specifics but the gist is that it's a huge residential area. There are designated areas for parking through out the areas. I park in a basement with gated access. It's limited to drivers who have the right key to enter. I appeal on the basis that there are absolutely no signs anywhere around the gate in accordance with Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice. In the basement there are no signs in clear view for my parking bay. If you expect people to enter into a contract by using a car park, service or a product then the contract should be clearly visible to those people. You can't hide the contract or make it inconspicuous and expect those people to seek it out. It's as if you're willing those people to breach that contract!
    For all of these I've attached enough photos to prove it.
    I don't really want the hassle of court so would like to end this obviously with a successful outcome.


    PCN 5
    This is with gladstones and on final reminder I'm only asking for time until I know the outcome for PCN 4. Of course I don't want to pay because I know that I'm in the right but at the same time I'd like to avoid going to court. I'm just not sure what to do in this situation.
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 8th Jan 18, 1:06 PM
    • 25 Posts
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    Pat26
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:06 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 1:06 PM
    Sorry just picked up on the suggestions to read threads by Daniel san and hairray. Doing so now. Any replies would still help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jan 18, 11:53 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:53 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 11:53 PM
    The IAS will not consider any evidence you didn't produce already.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 9th Jan 18, 12:26 AM
    • 25 Posts
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    Pat26
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 12:26 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 18, 12:26 AM
    If you mean the lease I wasn't going to attach it but mention the lease in my response. I have already mentioned this in my previous response so it will be a repeat.

    "1) SUBMIT YOUR RESPONSE - You can respond to the evidence by making any representations that you consider to be relevant as to the lawfulness of the charge any by uploading any extra photographs or other evidence that you may have...."
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Jan 18, 1:30 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:30 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 18, 1:30 AM
    OK, then do upload the evidence, not just refer to it. The IAS will probably expect the entire lease, every page, or they will do something like accuse you of redacting it...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 10th Jan 18, 6:47 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 6:47 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Jan 18, 6:47 PM
    I have drafted a response to my IAS appeal for PCN 4.

    It's quite lengthy but would be great if someone can take a look.

    If the response is OK and it helps me win the appeal hopefully the others in similar situation can refer to it. If I lose then it'll be what not to say.

    As stated in my previous responses to the operator throughout this appeal I maintain that the car was parked in an undercroft and has a defined entrance with gated access. There is no PCM signage at the entrance to this undercroft at least in keeping with the spirit of the guidance provided in Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice. So how am I supposed to see any signage? Please refer back to the photographic evidence which was attached with my initial appeal <reference to photographic evidence to prove that there are no PCM signs on the gate or on the adjacent walls >
    Therefore by logic I did not see any PCM signage as I entered the gated undercroft where the car was parked.

    On entry into the undercroft and in relation to the parking bay <X> and the direction in which the car was parked I did not see any PCM signage in CLEAR view or at least signage directing a motorist to any PCM signage in clear view. Please refer to the following photographic evidence attached with my initial appeal: <reference to photographic evidence>

    PCM says that they are contracted to monitor and enforce a parking enforcement scheme at <location> but they have not provided any evidence to support this statement.

    PCM says that the site is private land and is managed and operated by Parking Control Management. To my knowledge this is an incorrect statement by PCM. As I have stated previously I am a leaseholder to an apartment in <location> and according to that lease the manager is <name of manager> not Parking Control Management. PCM is not party to my lease.

    PCM says that the signage is clear and adequate throughout the parking area having passed an IPC audit. They have not supported this statement by providing the IPC audit as evidence.

    PCM has so far failed to provide any explanation why there is no PCM signage at the entrance to the undercroft at least in keeping with the spirit of the guidance provided in Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice.

    PCM says that in the case Vine v Waltham Forest LBC (2000) it has been adjudicated that once it is established that sufficient and adequate warning notices are in place, a motorist cannot be heard to say they did not see the notice. This case has no bearing to the specifics of my appeal.

    I am a resident and owner/leaseholder of an apartment in the <building name> in <location>. As per the lease the parking bay <X> within the above mentioned undercroft is allocated to me and I have the right to use the allocated bay to park a private motor vehicle with a road fund licence. At the time of the incident the car was parked in bay <X> allocated to me as evident from the photographs taken by PCM for this PCN. As a resident and leaseholder who pay ground rent and service charges to maintain the premises I have the right to be in the premises, the right to use the parking bay <X> in the undercroft, was rightfully parked in the correct bay. My lease does not state that I should Iook out for PCM signage before using the parking space. PCM isn!!!8217;t party to my lease and cannot overturn my right as a leaseholder by referring to signs that do not exist at the entrance to the car park or by referring to any signage that is inconspicuous to a motorist using parking bay <X>. Moreover I respect the terms of my lease that relates to the rights of other leaseholders/tenants/motorists who use the car park and their privacy. I do not wish to enter or trespass on their allocated parking spaces looking for inconspicuous PCM signage. I re-iterate that in relation to bay <X> there is no PCM signage in clear view for the motorist to see.

    I am happy to provide a copy of the above mentioned lease if PCM provides me with the following:
    - evidence to support their statement that they are contracted to monitor and enforce a parking enforcement scheme at Kennet Island and proof that such a contract provide PCM the right to enter the car parking bay <X> without first notifying me in writing and in advance. As per my lease only the Lessor and the manager have the right to enter the parking space with 48 hour written notice to me.
    - evidence of IPC audit
    - specific reason why there is no PCM signage at the entrance to the undercroft at least in keeping with the spirit of the guidance provided in Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice
    Last edited by Pat26; 11-01-2018 at 1:35 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jan 18, 10:50 PM
    • 58,441 Posts
    • 71,953 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:50 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Jan 18, 10:50 PM
    As per my lease only the Lessor and the manager have the right to enter the parking space with 48 hour written notice to me.
    Does this specifically include your parking space, i.e. is it defined as owned by you, picked out in red, etc., on a map?

    Show your lease wording and map (ALL of it) at this point, not just offer to show it - you can't win like this, IMHO. You are playing a game. The burden of evidence is weighted by the IAS against you, so tip that balance back.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 1:43 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    In the lease 'Parking Space' is defined as the parking space within the manager's land shown marked as number <X> on plan <reference>. The space isn't highlighted on the plan, just shows the number. I do not own the parking space but I have the right to use the space. The right is granted by the lease. The only provision is that the manager has the right to enter the parking space for the purpose of compliance with their obligations under the lease.

    I will attach a copy of the lease (my reluctance is that I consider it a private document). Is it better to reference the clauses relevant to car parking space?

    I am not the named tenant on the lease, will this be a problem? I have a notice of assignment and charge with my name. Should I attach this too? The notice has information of my solicitor, mortgage lender etc

    I have removed the part,
    I am happy to provide a copy of the above mentioned lease if PCM provides me with the following...r
    Replaced it with,
    I have attached a copy of the above mentioned lease.
    Also, PCM says that they are contracted to monitor and enforce a parking enforcement scheme and then they go on to say that the site is private land and is managed and operated by Parking Control Management. No where in my lease it says that PCM manages the land. Aren't they making a false claim by saying that they manage the land?

    I am not playing a game. Just trying to appeal this in the best way I know and have understood by referring to the posts on this forum, which is a great help.
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 1:54 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    PCM have also attached a photo of their signage to the appeal which says "This site is PRIVATE LAND and is managed any operated by PCM UK (Ltd)"

    How can they make a statement like that on their signs?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 11th Jan 18, 9:41 AM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 3,418 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Because they can? The parking is "managed" by them, under agency from the management co.

    Youre still not getting the IAS.
    You cannot say "the operator has not shown their contract" - the IAS will say they have a contract, YOU have to prove they do not. How bonkers and backwards is that?!
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 8:11 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    OK, so basically it's not just about defending myself with all the evidence and proof it's also up to me that prove that PCM is in the wrong and produce all the evidence myself to prove that!

    May be I'm analysing this too much but the sign says the SITE is private land and is managed any operated by PCM UK (Ltd). Not parking. Also they don't specify what this "site" is - whether it's the parking space or the site of the housing complex as a whole. It's barmy that these people are able to get away with such loose wording and use it to impose 100 worth of charges on us!
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 8:16 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    I've been reading more forum posts on here about cases similar to mine. Also taken advise from coupon-mad and the others and updated my (what could be) final response to IAS appeal process. Hope it's an improvement on the last one:

    As stated in my previous responses to the operator throughout this appeal I maintain that the car was parked in an undercroft and has a defined entrance with gated access. There is no PCM signage at the entrance to this undercroft at least in keeping with the spirit of the guidance provided in Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice. So how am I supposed to see any signage? Please refer back to the photographic evidence which was attached with my initial appeal:
    <reference photographic evidence with description>
    Therefore by logic I did not see any PCM signage as I entered the gated undercroft where the car was parked.

    PCM has so far failed to provide any explanation why there is no PCM signage at the entrance to the undercroft (with gated access) at least in keeping with the spirit of the guidance provided in Part E Schedule 1 - Signage section of IPC's Code of Practice.

    On entry into the undercroft and in relation to the parking bay <X > and the direction in which the car was parked I did not see any PCM signage in CLEAR view or at least signage directing a motorist to any PCM signage in clear view. Please refer to the following photographic evidence attached with my initial appeal: <reference to photographic evidence>

    I am the leaseholder and resident of apartment <?> in the <?> complex on <site>. As per my lease the parking bay <X > in the above mentioned undercroft is allocated to me.

    Please refer to the attached copy of my lease (Lease.doc). The parking space is shown marked as number <X > on Plan <?> (included with the lease). The lease grants me the right to use the allocated bay to park a private motor vehicle with a road fund licence. At the time of the incident the car was parked in bay <X > allocated to me, as evident from the photographs taken by PCM for this PCN.

    As a resident and leaseholder who pays ground rent and service charges to maintain the premises I have the right to be in the premises, the right to use the parking bay <X > in the undercroft and the right for peaceful enjoyment of the facilities within my housing complex.

    My lease does not require me to Iook for PCM signage before using the parking space. PCM isn!!!8217;t a party to my lease and cannot vary my right as a leaseholder to use the parking space by referring to signs that do not exist at the entrance to the car park or by referring to any signage that is inconspicuous to a motorist using parking bay <X >. Moreover I do not wish to trespass on the parking spaces allocated to other leaseholders/tenants/motorists who use the car park looking for inconspicuous PCM signage. I re-iterate that in relation to bay <X> there is no PCM signage in clear view for the motorist to see.

    Please be advised that if PCM feels that they have the legal right to take further action against me then I will use the lease as well as the photographs attached as evidence to defend my case.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jan 18, 8:17 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    OK, so basically it's not just about defending myself with all the evidence and proof it's also up to me that prove that PCM is in the wrong and produce all the evidence myself to prove that!
    Originally posted by Pat26
    Yes that's why we consider the IAS to be a kangaroo court, due to the balance being tipped against consumers who are expected to prove things to the nth degree, and still lose!

    In court the burden would lie with the Claimant.

    I will attach a copy of the lease (my reluctance is that I consider it a private document). Is it better to reference the clauses relevant to car parking space?

    I am not the named tenant on the lease, will this be a problem? I have a notice of assignment and charge with my name. Should I attach this too? The notice has information of my solicitor, mortgage lender etc
    Attach the whole lease including the map.

    Attach the notice of assignment & charge in your name, but cover the mortgage lender. Leave the solicitor's name showing.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-01-2018 at 8:19 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Jan 18, 8:26 PM
    • 7,683 Posts
    • 7,396 Thanks
    KeithP
    It's barmy that these people are able to get away with such loose wording and use it to impose 100 worth of charges on us!
    Originally posted by Pat26
    You won't find many people here disagreeing with that.

    You need to make your views clear to your MP an encourage him to support the forthcoming private members bill currently being promoted by Sir Greg Knight.
    .
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 9:37 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    Attach the whole lease including the map.

    Attach the notice of assignment & charge in your name, but cover the mortgage lender. Leave the solicitor's name showing.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Sure, thanks for the tip. Will post back with the outcome.
    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 11th Jan 18, 10:49 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    There is one other PCN now with Gladstones. I received final reminder to pay within 14 days on 29th Dec. The letter refers to their client, the amount and my vehicle registration. However it does not specify the PCN number. Can I reject their letter saying that they have not validated their request for payment with a reference that I can identify with?

    I mean any scammer can note down my registration number and slap it on a document and ask for payment!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 18, 12:29 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    If they are both PCM at the same site, same facts, then write and say you think they are mistaken because the PCN is at IAS stage, ref xxxxxxxxx and you have responded to the evidence.

    Add that if they are talking about another PCN, they must give you full details including date, location, PCN number, all photos taken and a copy of the sign they allege was in place on the material date, and an explanation of the alleged issue.

    Then you should get a reply around the same time you hear from the IAS (same Directors as Gladstones of course).

    Conflict of interests.

    Also complain to your MP about this harassment, tell them about it and get support for the new Bill mentioned on this forum lots of times.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Pat26
    • By Pat26 12th Jan 18, 1:39 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Pat26
    Yes they are both PCM at the same site, same facts.

    Instead of referring to the one still at the IAS appeal stage can I not refer to a PCN I have recently appealed and won at the IAS stage? It's all PCM, same site, same facts. When they do come back with the details I can point out that the facts are the same as the one I won ask for the PCN to be cancelled?
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