Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • marlasinger
    • By marlasinger 4th Jan 18, 1:02 PM
    • 465Posts
    • 373Thanks
    marlasinger
    House with Grade II listed garden
    • #1
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:02 PM
    House with Grade II listed garden 4th Jan 18 at 1:02 PM
    We are in the process of looking for a house to buy. One we are considering viewing is described as:


    "To the rear is a lovely walled sunny garden (Grade II Listed) which is laid mainly to lawn with terrace and decked area, surrounded by clematis, camellias, roses and established shrub borders. An arch and wood store complete this delightful private garden. "


    Has anyone heard of this before - having a Grade II listed garden, when the house isn't listed? It's an 'ordinary house', which has had the garage converted to a studio and has solar panels put on top. It has otherwise been modernised as well so the actual house can't be listed. I've googled this and can't find anything about private residential gardens being listed.


    Thanks.
    marlasinger

Page 1
    • aneary
    • By aneary 4th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    • 887 Posts
    • 836 Thanks
    aneary
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    Is it maybe the Wall that's listed?
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 4th Jan 18, 1:08 PM
    • 2,649 Posts
    • 1,726 Thanks
    Robin9
    • #3
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:08 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:08 PM
    Do your own search

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • Callie22
    • By Callie22 4th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 8,460 Thanks
    Callie22
    • #4
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    I agree, it's probably the wall rather than the garden. To be listed something has to have some degree of historical importance and I can't see decking being that!
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 4th Jan 18, 1:15 PM
    • 25,198 Posts
    • 68,803 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:15 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:15 PM
    As everyone else says, it is likely to be the wall.

    However, if that wall belongs to the house then the whole house is listed as a result of the wall. It would be very unusual for the wall only to be listed.

    What does the listing say in the link provided above?
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 4th Jan 18, 1:30 PM
    • 7,837 Posts
    • 8,019 Thanks
    davidmcn
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:30 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:30 PM
    As I understand it, any structure can be listed - so bridges, canals, and yes a garden with notable walls, terraces etc.


    Note that alterations to the house might also need consent if they could be deemed to affect the setting of the listed building.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 4th Jan 18, 1:44 PM
    • 20,335 Posts
    • 16,088 Thanks
    agrinnall
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:44 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:44 PM
    As everyone else says, it is likely to be the wall.

    However, if that wall belongs to the house then the whole house is listed as a result of the wall. It would be very unusual for the wall only to be listed.

    What does the listing say in the link provided above?
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    What if the house was built long after the wall and garden were created?
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 4th Jan 18, 1:48 PM
    • 2,649 Posts
    • 1,726 Thanks
    Robin9
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:48 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Jan 18, 1:48 PM
    If the house was built AFTER the wall/garden was listed then the house will not be listed.

    If there was a garden shed on the site before the listing then the shed will be listed .
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 4th Jan 18, 2:03 PM
    • 5,211 Posts
    • 13,883 Thanks
    EachPenny
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 2:03 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Jan 18, 2:03 PM
    Has anyone heard of this before - having a Grade II listed garden, when the house isn't listed? It's an 'ordinary house', which has had the garage converted to a studio and has solar panels put on top. It has otherwise been modernised as well so the actual house can't be listed.
    Originally posted by marlasinger
    There is nothing to stop a modern, or modernised, building being listed. Most listed buildings have been modernised to a degree.

    The purpose of listing isn't to prevent change, but to ensure the change is sympathetic and retains features which are considered to be especially valuable. When it comes to extending listed buildings, the approach is normally to require the extension to be in a very different style to make it clear that the extension is not part of the original.

    Therefore it is entirely plausible that a modern style was a requirement of developing on a piece of land where an existing feature was listed.

    As davidmcn and Doozergirl point out, even if the house itslef isn't listed, the presence of a listed feature nearby may restrict what changes you are allowed to make to the house.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 4th Jan 18, 2:35 PM
    • 4,192 Posts
    • 8,715 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    Also worth pointing out the obvious: these are Estate Agent details, so likely based on Chinese Whispers between seller, agent, and writer.

    Do check the (potential) listing, as post #3. No surprise if there's a surprise there!
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 4th Jan 18, 2:42 PM
    • 2,649 Posts
    • 1,726 Thanks
    Robin9
    As I understand it, any structure can be listed - so bridges, canals, and yes a garden with notable walls, terraces etc.
    Originally posted by davidmcn
    Even telephone boxes.
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • Forumexpert
    • By Forumexpert 4th Jan 18, 2:47 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Forumexpert
    It's a rubble wall belonging to a former infantry barracks. From the listing and the maps, it's unclear who the wall actually belongs to since a housing estate has been built on the former barracks land and the wall passes the boundary of many houses without a primary house to assert ownership.

    There is one house which is specifically listed but for all the others, I think that the wall will only be classified as a protected boundary feature and will not lead to the definition of a curtilage. It's rather a special situation though so would need to be confirmed by solicitors. Definitely a far stretch to call it a grade 2 listed garden though....

    Listed in 1981 and house looks to be from similar period.
    Last edited by Forumexpert; 04-01-2018 at 2:49 PM.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 4th Jan 18, 3:23 PM
    • 5,211 Posts
    • 13,883 Thanks
    EachPenny
    It's a rubble wall belonging to a former infantry barracks. From the listing and the maps, it's unclear who the wall actually belongs to since a housing estate has been built on the former barracks land and the wall passes the boundary of many houses without a primary house to assert ownership.
    Originally posted by Forumexpert
    The other side of the wall is a (narrow) public road, so it is possible it has been transferred to the Council's ownership (I've dealt with a similar case myself).

    I would definitely want to find out about ownership and maintenance responsibilities before purchasing - it would only take a knock from a passing lorry on the road to generate a very significant repair bill.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • Forumexpert
    • By Forumexpert 4th Jan 18, 3:57 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Forumexpert
    The other side of the wall is a (narrow) public road, so it is possible it has been transferred to the Council's ownership (I've dealt with a similar case myself).

    I would definitely want to find out about ownership and maintenance responsibilities before purchasing - it would only take a knock from a passing lorry on the road to generate a very significant repair bill.
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    Agreed, but other sections of the wall pass between gardens and farmland and I'd be surprised if the council had taken them on.

    What is absolutely clear to me is that I wouldn't want to take on liabilities for the wall. As an overall feature stretching several hundred metres, it's a nice object and historically valuable, but as a ca. 12m garden wall, it isn't particularly endearing. I love the estate agent's artistic licence to describe a garden with a wall along one side as a "walled garden"!
    • glasgowdan
    • By glasgowdan 4th Jan 18, 8:58 PM
    • 2,895 Posts
    • 3,247 Thanks
    glasgowdan
    Sadly the wall doesnt catch the sun. I think you've got it that just the wall is listed so you can't make changes without going through relevant channels
    • Robin9
    • By Robin9 4th Jan 18, 9:03 PM
    • 2,649 Posts
    • 1,726 Thanks
    Robin9
    Sadly the wall doesnt catch the sun. I think you've got it that just the wall is listed so you can't make changes without going through relevant channels
    Originally posted by glasgowdan
    You wont get permission to change it; maintaining/repairing it will be very expensive and you will need Listed Building Consent to do anything - it wont be a job for a typical builder.
    Never pay on an estimated bill
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 4th Jan 18, 9:28 PM
    • 5,211 Posts
    • 13,883 Thanks
    EachPenny
    Agreed, but other sections of the wall pass between gardens and farmland and I'd be surprised if the council had taken them on.
    Originally posted by Forumexpert
    I know of a council that took ownership of a historic wall between a development and a railway line - neither adjacent owner was likely to look after it and given the historical nature it was felt council ownership gave it the protection it deserved. The developer coughed up a substantial sum for future maintenance though

    I could imagine similar considerations applying to this wall...
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • marlasinger
    • By marlasinger 4th Jan 18, 9:35 PM
    • 465 Posts
    • 373 Thanks
    marlasinger
    Yes, it is a wall that is listed. For anyone interested, the post code is PL21 0RP. Thanks for that link Robin9 - I shall be bookmarking it.

    To be honest, sounds like more hassle than it's worth. I'm very risk-averse, so this has put me off the property. So, the search continues....!
    marlasinger

    • StumpyPumpy
    • By StumpyPumpy 4th Jan 18, 10:15 PM
    • 1,254 Posts
    • 3,377 Thanks
    StumpyPumpy
    Probably a good decision. The wall is what remains of a Napoleonic era infantry barracks. The real question you would need answering if you had planned to go ahead would be who owned the wall. In around 2015 the council "served a repairs notice on owner under town and country planning acts", so I guess it isn't them and they are actively protecting it making it imperative to ensure the owner was someone other than yourself!

    Snippets of detail from here

    SP
    Come on people, it's not difficult: lose means to be unable to find, loose means not being fixed in place. So if you have a hole in your pocket you might lose your loose change.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

40Posts Today

3,450Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @LaraLewington: ...and mine suggested I'd achieved a lifelong ambition of being sawn in half by a magician - at our wedding. Wasn't. Don?

  • We are working on it - I think BA has behaved awfully on this. Those flight were no obviously a glitch. It should? https://t.co/8pvtXtUEqi

  • RT @thenicolabryant: Absolutely. We need mental health and financial health as advocated my @MartinSLewis , to be taught in schools. So muc?

  • Follow Martin