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    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 7th Dec 17, 8:26 PM
    • 6Posts
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    MissSporty
    County court claim form - help!
    • #1
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:26 PM
    County court claim form - help! 7th Dec 17 at 8:26 PM
    Hi everyone I hope you can help me!

    Today I have received a county court claim form.

    In February 2016 I dropped a friend home to her flat, she had a new born baby, and I simply helped carry her things to the 11th floor and returned to my car. My friend told me to park in this bay which all the visitors park in.

    Something like 6 months later I had a letter come through stating a £150 parking charge, I was flabagasted and stupidly I ignored thinking they hadn’t sent it in time.
    (but I only realised since that they had been sending letters to my previous address. )

    Today I have now received a county court claim form, from Gladstone’s but the claimant is UK car park.

    It’s now asking for over £250!

    And the poc states I’ve breached the terms of parking on the land. The defendant was driving the vehicle and or the keeper.

    I’ve tried to read the newbie section but I’m bamboozled. I’d really appreciate someone’s help with a defence as I’m self employed and that’s such a lot of money to me.

    Thank you in advance!
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 8:29 PM
    • 18,114 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:29 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:29 PM
    I assume the claim form is from Northampton CCBC ?

    and I assume it is from UK CPM ?

    have you read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread at the top of this forum ?

    I suggest you read it a few times
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 7th Dec 17, 8:41 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    MissSporty
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:41 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:41 PM
    Thank you for your reply. Yes that!!!8217;s both correct.
    I have read all through the tips, I just can!!!8217;t work out where to begin with a relevant defence.... or have I missed my chance at this stage.
    Last edited by MissSporty; 07-12-2017 at 8:47 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    • 18,114 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Dec 17, 8:47 PM
    that claim form will have a service date on it , usually 5 days hence , you then do the online AOS and this extends the defence deadline from 14 to 28 days

    so if the claim form only arrived today, you have until early jan 2018 as long as the AOS is done

    or does it mention POC to follow ?

    you really need to gen up on that post #2 asap too
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 7th Dec 17, 9:08 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    MissSporty
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:08 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:08 PM
    Yes it!!!8217;s dated in the past 5 days and the poc are on the form.

    So basically I have to go online, and simply say I!!!8217;m going to argue it then have a month to submit the defence?

    Thank you !!!55357;!!!56911;
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 9:09 PM
    • 18,114 Posts
    • 22,902 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:09 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 9:09 PM
    more or less yes

    leave the defence box blank, just do the AOS

    if in doubt , refer back to that post #2 as it is your "bible"
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 9th Dec 17, 9:18 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    MissSporty
    • #7
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:18 PM
    time span
    • #7
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:18 PM
    How can I prove i didnt get their first letter for 6 months after the event? ...

    also I didn't see any signage, whats the rules on that too?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Dec 17, 9:23 PM
    • 57,449 Posts
    • 71,038 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:23 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:23 PM
    Yes it!!!8217;s dated in the past 5 days and the poc are on the form.

    So basically I have to go online, and simply say I!!!8217;m going to argue it then have a month to submit the defence?
    Originally posted by MissSporty
    This is all covered in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread, including a step by step pictorial walk-through how to do the AOS.

    Then defence examples follow, and a summary of what happens when that you must read, to know what to do, not come here asking when the Directions Questionnaire arrives later, etc.

    You need to do your own research of other threads, not fire questions at us. We want to see your draft defence later this month, then we will assist further to help make it stronger, and we will help with your WS, and the hearing stage.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Dec 17, 9:25 PM
    • 35,600 Posts
    • 19,813 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #9
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:25 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Dec 17, 9:25 PM
    How can I prove i didnt get their first letter for 6 months after the event? ...

    also I didn't see any signage, whats the rules on that too?
    Originally posted by MissSporty

    You look to have not received their letters because you moved but didn't inform DVLA till sometime after moving and no redirection??
    Last edited by Quentin; 09-12-2017 at 9:27 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Dec 17, 9:59 PM
    • 18,114 Posts
    • 22,902 Thanks
    Redx
    also I didn't see any signage, whats the rules on that too?
    Originally posted by MissSporty
    check the relevant CoP (Code Of Practice)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 11th Dec 17, 9:36 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    MissSporty
    Draft defence ?
    Hi, I have read the newbies thread and completed the aos online. I am now preparing my defence.

    How does this sound ? ...

    County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    UK Car Park Management LTD
    V
    xxxx


    Claim Number: xxxxx


    I, xxxx, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    • This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example, as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.


    a. There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.
    b. This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.
    c. The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.
    d. The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.
    The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs. These documents, and the ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ should have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim or to “take stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Again, this totally contradicts the guidance outlined in the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (2017), the aims of which are:

    i. ‘early engagement and communication between the parties, including early exchange of sufficient information about the matter to help clarify whether there are any issues in dispute
    ii. enable the parties to resolve the matter without the need to start court proceedings, including agreeing a reasonable repayment plan or considering using an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) procedure
    iii. encourage the parties to act in a reasonable and proportionate manner in all dealings with one another (for example, avoiding running up costs which do not bear a reasonable relationship to the sums in issue) and
    iv. support the efficient management of proceedings that cannot be avoided.’
    e. The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as disclosing no cause of action and having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.
    f. Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge
    ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)
    iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)
    iv. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper
    v. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter
    vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed
    vii. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed.
    g. Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.
    • The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor any NTK mentioned an additional charge for outstanding debt and damages.
    • The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs’ were incurred.

    • This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.
    • In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    a. The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
    b. In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
    c. Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    i. Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
    ii. It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
    iii. No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
    iv. The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
    d. BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    i. the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    ii. the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    iii. there is / was no compliant landowner contract.
    • No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.
    • The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.
    • The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.
    • Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 22 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Dec 17, 11:31 PM
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    • 71,038 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's too long, repetitive, and it doesn't say what the actual facts are, and what the defence is.

    You would be best defending this as admitted driver, unless you are certain that their first letter was not served to your last address in time. Was there no windscreen PCN?

    Please have another look at the example defences, and pick out the one by Johnersh, as this is a residential car park so you need that version, adapted to suit. It's the only one in the NEWBIES thread written by him, and it cites[I] Jopson v Home Guard, read it and understand how it helps you as a person dropping off a passenger/unloading:

    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/213077149-Loading-and-Unloading-Jopson-v-Homeguard-2016-

    And ask your friend for a copy of her AST or lease, and any letter about 'visitor permits' if that was the issue (lack of visitor permit?). You MUST find out what rights to park she has in her lease or AST (please don't ask what that is).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MissSporty
    • By MissSporty 13th Dec 17, 7:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    MissSporty
    If I'm honest, my friend doesn't live there anymore, and as they are expats her husbands company were in charge of the rental. So I won't be able to take a copy of the lease or AST.

    The bay i was parked in, which would fit around 5 or 6 cars, was outside the flats, however their permit parking was all underground underneath the flats in an enclosed car park. I was told this area outside on the main road, was guest parking, and hadn't seen any signs to say otherwise.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Dec 17, 7:32 PM
    • 57,449 Posts
    • 71,038 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    as they are expats her husbands company were in charge of the rental. So I won't be able to take a copy of the lease or AST.
    It's vital as part of a defence re a resident's car parking space.

    Husband emails his company (or ex-company) and asks nicely for a copy...

    Have you gone & got photos of the lack of signs? Another vital step in evidence, in readiness.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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