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  • FIRST POST
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 1st Dec 17, 2:48 PM
    • 49Posts
    • 39Thanks
    MikeHammer
    POPLA Appeal (ECP) - Successful - not contested
    • #1
    • 1st Dec 17, 2:48 PM
    POPLA Appeal (ECP) - Successful - not contested 1st Dec 17 at 2:48 PM
    First time posting and in need of some brief advice before proceeding with an appeal.

    I have read the stickies, I've read the FAQ's, I've read the BPA Code of Practice and I've reviewed paragraph 9 of POFA 2012 that relates to postal NTK's. I've also searched various things on this forum in order to better equip myself with the knowledge I may need, should I proceed with an appeal. Apologies in advance for not being able to link the images due to being a new member.

    Put simply, the driver entered a ECP car park from a 30mph road at around 7.50pm on a dark night. On the occasion for which the PCN has been issued, the driver did not see signs upon entering the car park, nor did they see any larger signs adjacent to ticket machines. No signage was visible from where the driver parked the car, nor on the exit route used from the car park (a genuine, gravel path exit - not jumping a fence or anything!).

    The times indicated on the PCN say the vehicle was in the car park for 10 minutes and 48 seconds. The PCN shows ANPR images of a numberplate (the car itself is not visible in the image, nor is anything identifiable as the car park itself).

    The reason I'm asking for advice is because the driver did not purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay as they did not see the signage (the majority of what I've read when searching this forum are from people who have tickets but who've exceeded the time permitted).

    Upon returning to the car park (without a camera so unable to post actual pics), there are small signs at the entrance that have a white "P" in a blue square and some other small text (apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example). This sign is at a height not convenient for a driver to see/read when turning into the car park from a 30mph road (where Government guidelines say the sign must be legible at a speed of 15mph). It is not illuminated, either by direct or indirect light. It appears to be reflective but is at a height far above that which would be lit by car headlights (also the angle of approach to the car park mean your headlights would not light up that sign even if it were at a lower level).

    The main sign in the car park located next to a ticket machine (that is illuminated) is a big yellow/blue ECP standard looking sign (again, apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example), however the driver did not see it when parking on the occasion for which the PCN was issued. Having gone back to the car park and specifically looked, it *is* illuminated and it is directly opposite the vehicle entrance to the car park (probably 100 yards or so directly in front of the entrance), however the driver drove immediately right upon entering the car park so would not have been facing it at any point.

    I have attempted to search for any related advice. I have found some very useful information (so thank you to everyone who commits time to helping others on here) but nothing that fits the combination of circumstances (not purchasing a ticket) *and* potential reason for appeal (signage).

    I wanted to seek your views on whether it's worth me appealing, given the driver did not buy any ticket at all and given it probably looks like all the relevant info that needs to be on the signs is on the signs (they're just not prominent at all).

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by MikeHammer; 13-02-2018 at 8:14 AM.
Page 2
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 7th Dec 17, 3:21 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    stick to the same thread please

    one topic , one thread only

    open a new thread if its a different topic or pcn or court case

    so one thread for each case , start to finish
    Originally posted by Redx
    Clarified - thank you
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 3:35 PM
    • 18,507 Posts
    • 23,417 Thanks
    Redx
    Hi guys, I'm seeking clarification on the question from above, specifically:



    Thank you!
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    explained in post #15 here

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5756287
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 8th Dec 17, 2:48 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Bit of an update to say I've now submitted the first phase appeal to ECP. I've been busy reading lots and lots of threads on this forum, including the POPLA appeals decisions thread and the background to everyone's appeal. I've been trying to get my facts straight about the various aspects of this and have spent lots of time collating a substantial amount of information for the inevitable POPLA appeal of which I hope to post my first draft for people's comment early next week.

    I've also fired off an email to the Council's Planning Department about Planning Permission for the ANPR cameras (or, more specifically, the pole that they're mounted to) as I found the original application for the car park and there is no mention of cameras or the pole to which they're attached, nor have there been any applications since that I can find. I've also asked about Advertising Consent for ECP's signage.

    I will post here next week for comments. I've gone with the approach of putting lots in, some of which you'll probably tell me I need to remove, on the grounds that if it's there you can tell me to keep it/remove it whereas if it's not there it's less likely someone's going to say "include a section on xx" (if that makes sense!

    I must say, this whole experience has been pretty interesting and has generated a real interest in the subject (is that sad?!)! In fact, my wife said someone in her office is about to pay a fine and I reeled off a stack of reasons why not to and things to check, all of which I've learned from you guys and your brilliantly helpful contributions to this forum so thank you.

    Thanks everyone
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 13th Dec 17, 12:08 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    POPLA Appeal - First Draft
    Whilst I'm awaiting the inevitable rejection from ECP I've put together my POPLA appeal and would very much appreciate any feedback/comments you have to offer.

    NOTE::
    • I!!!8217;m not leaving the red text in !!!8211; it!!!8217;s a reminder to me that I need to do something with that part of the document.
    • The formatting will be sorted before submitting.
    • Also I!!!8217;m not linking to the MoneySavingExpert forums at any point !!!8211; again, just a reminder for myself.

    I'd appreciate feedback on the whole thing but specific questions I have are around:
    1. Inclusion of section 3 (evidence that individual is the driver)?
    2. Include image taken from where car was parked showing inadequacy of signage? Or would this implicate me as the driver?
    3. Do sections 1 and 2 contradict themselves? Specifically section 1 talks about time taken to locate signage, read it and leave whereas section 2 quotes case law where a motorist didn!!!8217;t see any signs.
    4. Ordering of sections based on strength of evidence.

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by MikeHammer; 14-12-2017 at 8:49 AM.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Dec 17, 8:48 PM
    • 597 Posts
    • 707 Thanks
    claxtome
    You need to ensure that the POPLA appeal document you are linking has all sensitive information redacted (blanked out).
    Things like the registration of your car.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Dec 17, 9:12 PM
    • 8,072 Posts
    • 7,934 Thanks
    KeithP
    Page 14, first para, second sentence should start:
    I am the keeper throughout...
    .
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 13th Dec 17, 9:17 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Page 14, first para, second sentence should start:
    I am the keeper throughout...
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Thank you !!!128077;!!!127996;

    You need to ensure that the POPLA appeal document you are linking has all sensitive information redacted (blanked out).
    Things like the registration of your car.
    Originally posted by claxtome
    Oops - schoolboy error.. have pulled the Dropbox file until I can amend the PDF tomorrow. Thank you for pointing this out.

    Will repost the link tomorrow.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 14th Dec 17, 8:51 AM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Right... change suggested by KeithP made, sensitive info redacted, link to PDF reinstated into original post.

    Would appreciate people looking and providing any comments, particularly around the things I mention in my previous post.

    Thank you
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Dec 17, 12:19 PM
    • 59,486 Posts
    • 72,654 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Bump for comments...
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 15th Dec 17, 12:58 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Would be very grateful if anyone of you could take the time to look through my POPLA appeal and provide comments...

    Would it generate more feedback if I were to paste the entire thing here to save people having to open the PDF?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Dec 17, 1:18 PM
    • 18,373 Posts
    • 29,081 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    As your initial appeal hasn!!!8217;t even been rejected by the PPC, and you don!!!8217;t have a POPLA verification code yet, I!!!8217;d guess that the scarce resource here will be dealing with cases that are further forward in the need for immediate assistance and action.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 15th Dec 17, 3:49 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    As your initial appeal hasn’t even been rejected by the PPC, and you don’t have a POPLA verification code yet, I’d guess that the scarce resource here will be dealing with cases that are further forward in the need for immediate assistance and action.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thanks for that.. the advice on these forums about PPC's never upholding appeals and to get working on your POPLA case whilst you await the inevitable rejection must all be wrong then I take it..
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Dec 17, 4:02 PM
    • 36,328 Posts
    • 20,573 Thanks
    Quentin
    Thanks for that.. the advice on these forums about PPC's never upholding appeals and to get working on your POPLA case whilst you await the inevitable rejection must all be wrong then I take it..
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    You have misunderstood (,or not read the Newbies faq on appeals)

    Reread it to see that there are 2 associations involved.

    Different outcomes for appeals depending on who you deal with
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 15th Dec 17, 5:05 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Nope - haven’t misunderstood it thanks.. read lots of things including he newbie thread numerous times..
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Dec 17, 6:18 PM
    • 18,373 Posts
    • 29,081 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for that.. the advice on these forums about PPC's never upholding appeals and to get working on your POPLA case whilst you await the inevitable rejection must all be wrong then I take it..
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    Of course they’re not wrong! But it’s just about the prioritisation of time and not getting bogged down going through a 20 page POPLA appeal which is not yet even at POPLA stage. There’s a limit to how many mind-numbing War and Peace POPLA drafts people can go through. And the number of regulars prepared to analyse POPLA appeals (I’m one), are no more than three or four.

    I just gave you my view as to why no one had yet provided any feedback - you seemed to be questioning why no feedback. Wasn’t really expecting such a slightly sarky response.

    Most days we are having to rattle through dozens of wide ranging, sometimes complicated threads and posts, many which are requiring urgent attention, often close to court appearance. Some OPs feel their cases are so desperately important, they even put multiple exclamation marks in their thread title!

    We are having to paddle fast, just to tread water most of the time. Yours is not the only case on the forum, and you will get help, but your timescale for requiring help could well be out of sync with that of the small numbers of regulars, who give freely of their time on here.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Dec 17, 6:22 PM
    • 36,328 Posts
    • 20,573 Thanks
    Quentin
    Nope - haven!!!8217;t misunderstood it thanks.. read lots of things including he newbie thread numerous times..
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    Nowhere in the faq does it say anything along the lines of "all appeals to bpa companies will fail so get on with constructing a popla appeal!"
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 15th Dec 17, 8:14 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Nowhere in the faq does it say anything along the lines of "all appeals to bpa companies will fail so get on with constructing a popla appeal!"
    Originally posted by Quentin
    No it doesn’t - you’re right.. however I’ve read advice along the lines of “in the meantime get on with constructing your POPLA appeal” in lots of responses to posts from people asking what they should do following the receipt of a PCN...

    Of course they’re not wrong! But it’s just about the prioritisation of time and not getting bogged down going through a 20 page POPLA appeal which is not yet even at POPLA stage. There’s a limit to how many mind-numbing War and Peace POPLA drafts people can go through. And the number of regulars prepared to analyse POPLA appeals (I’m one), are no more than three or four.

    I just gave you my view as to why no one had yet provided any feedback - you seemed to be questioning why no feedback. Wasn’t really expecting such a slightly sarky response.

    Most days we are having to rattle through dozens of wide ranging, sometimes complicated threads and posts, many which are requiring urgent attention, often close to court appearance. Some OPs feel their cases are so desperately important, they even put multiple exclamation marks in their thread title!

    We are having to paddle fast, just to tread water most of the time. Yours is not the only case on the forum, and you will get help, but your timescale for requiring help could well be out of sync with that of the small numbers of regulars, who give freely of their time on here.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I owe you an apology - my response was sarcastic and unnecessary.. I thought I was responding to some patronising sarcasm from you in your post and I can tell from your latest reply I simply misread the tone and for that I apologise.

    I appreciate you taking the time to further explain what you meant and understand where you’re coming from.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 10th Jan 18, 8:38 AM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Appeal to Operator Rejected
    Yesterday my appeal to ECP was rejected. I am now at the stage where I need to submit my POPLA appeal and would very much appreciate any feedback/comments you have to offer. My first draft of the POPLA appeal can be found here.

    NOTE::
    • I’m not leaving the red text in – it’s a reminder to me that I need to do something with that part of the document.
    • Any formatting issues will be sorted before submitting.
    • Also I’m not linking to the MoneySavingExpert forums at any point – again, just a reminder for myself.

    I'd appreciate feedback on the whole thing but specific questions I have are around:
    1. Inclusion of section 3 (evidence that individual is the driver)?
    2. Include image taken from where car was parked showing inadequacy of signage? Or would this implicate me as the driver?
    3. Do sections 1 and 2 contradict themselves? Specifically section 1 talks about time taken to locate signage, read it and leave whereas section 2 quotes case law where a motorist didn’t see any signs.
    4. Ordering of sections based on strength of evidence.

    Thank you in advance.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Jan 18, 11:18 AM
    • 18,373 Posts
    • 29,081 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'd appreciate feedback on the whole thing but specific questions I have are around:
    Nicely formatted, makes reading 22 pages of text easier than (often presented) semi-literate 10-page walls of text with hardly a full stop or comma in sight. Use of embedded photos is far better than blind copy and paste links to send the assessor, yet again, careering around the internet. It helps not to alienate the assessor, dealing with your case, their zillionth of the week, just before knocking off time on a miserable Friday evening! What a mind-numbing job.

    1. Inclusion of section 3 (evidence that individual is the driver)?
    No harm in leaving it in, the PPC will have to deal with it. Ordinarily this para follows a strong ‘No Keeper Liability’ assertion.

    You have referred to the fact that there is no ‘Period of Parking’ shown on the NtK - is there anything else where the NtK is deficient, to enable you to nail ‘No Keeper Liability’?

    2. Include image taken from where car was parked showing inadequacy of signage? Or would this implicate me as the driver?
    The driver will have told you exactly where they parked, you subsequently have visited to check and photograph signage etc. There is no implication. You’re overthinking things.

    3. Do sections 1 and 2 contradict themselves? Specifically section 1 talks about time taken to locate signage, read it and leave whereas section 2 quotes case law where a motorist didn’t see any signs.
    I think you’re giving too much credence to the prospect of an assessor forensically analysing, comparing and contrasting sections of the appeal against each other. This isn’t a murder trial. But if you’re uneasy and you want to omit Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest, then I don’t think it would do you any damage. What point were you trying to make with it in the first place?

    Ordering of sections based on strength of evidence.
    As good as any order, unless you can really nail ‘No Keeper Liability’ then that would be #1, followed by ‘No evidence that individual is the driver’

    HTH
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 11th Jan 18, 11:22 AM
    • 49 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Draft 2
    Thank you Umkomaas for taking the time to look through the document and provide some feedback. I appreciate you guys must get bored of doing this so thank you for doing so.

    The latest draft of my appeal can be found here.

    To respond to your comments:

    You have referred to the fact that there is no !!!8216;Period of Parking!!!8217; shown on the NtK - is there anything else where the NtK is deficient, to enable you to nail !!!8216;No Keeper Liability!!!8217;?
    This comment relates to section 5 of my appeal document. The reason I mention "period of parking" is because the NtK does not explicitly relate the ANPR times to a "Period of Parking". It states that the vehicle "entered" at a given time and "departed" at a given time and later on claims that "the vehicle was parked at...." the NtK also states that the ANPR cameras are used to "calculate duration of stay" ("stay" - not "parking").

    Question: Worth leaving in?

    I can't see anywhere that the NtK is deficient. The dates issued are within the time period allowed and the days I have to respond are correct.

    The driver will have told you exactly where they parked, you subsequently have visited to check and photograph signage etc. There is no implication. You!!!8217;re overthinking things.
    The above point was in relation to including a photograph of the lack of signage visible from where the vehicle was parked. I have added an image (Fig 7) into Section 2 and accompanying text.

    Question: Do you think this addition is ok?

    I think you!!!8217;re giving too much credence to the prospect of an assessor forensically analysing, comparing and contrasting sections of the appeal against each other. This isn!!!8217;t a murder trial. But if you!!!8217;re uneasy and you want to omit Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest, then I don!!!8217;t think it would do you any damage. What point were you trying to make with it in the first place?
    The above point was in response to my question of if sections 1 (grace period) and 2 (inadequate signage) contradict themselves. Where I was going with this was section 1 suggests that the time quoted on the NtK (10mins 48secs) is a reasonable period to find signage, read it, reject T&C's and leave. Section 2 then claims inadequate/invisible/illegible signage.

    The reason Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest was left in was to make the point that if the signs are not seen/read, a person cannot be bound by the terms of them. There's a paragraph just after the introduction of the case that explains this:

    "This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established."

    Does that help respond to your comments? If you have any advice based on my responses or any further comments to make I'd be very grateful.

    Thanks again for your time.
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