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  • FIRST POST
    • ikcdab
    • By ikcdab 24th Nov 17, 10:29 PM
    • 50Posts
    • 69Thanks
    ikcdab
    Moving from ESA to Universal Credit
    • #1
    • 24th Nov 17, 10:29 PM
    Moving from ESA to Universal Credit 24th Nov 17 at 10:29 PM
    I am 25, single, living with parents. I am being paid PIP (higher rate daily living and standard rate mobility) and ESA work related group.
    I live in a UC full service area.
    I am unemployed and unable to work - hence the PIP and ESA.
    I have been paid the two benefits since before April 2017.
    I am now moving to independant living in private rented accommodation.
    I now need to claim housing allowances and council tax credit.
    I know that to do so I need to make a new claim for UC. I am concerned about this as the PIP and ESA were hard won and I do not want to jeapordise them. My questions are:

    1. When I make the UC claim, will my ESA immediately stop and then I need to wait the usual waiting periods until the UC kicks in?
    2. If so, will I get no money during the waiting period, or would the UC get backdated to the date I make the claim?
    3. I understand I am eligible for the Limited Capability for Work Related Activity element of UC because I have current awards for ESA and PIP. If so, is this an automatic 'add on' or will I have to undertake a new work capability assessment? This to me is the critical question. How certain is it that I will be eligible for this payment?
    4. Under the 'old system', with housing benefit I would have been eligible for the shared room rate, but as I claim PIP this would have been upgraded to single room rate. Is this 'upgrade' still paid with the housing element of UC?
    5. Whatever happens, I assume that my PIP will be totally unaffected.
    6. The online calculators seem to suggest that I could get paid 317 basic UC allowance, LCWRA of 318, housing element single room rate 368. This makes 1003 plus my PIP and council tax support. This is more money than I expected which seems at odds with the general thrust of UC.

    Finally, I am posting here because I have been unable to find the answers to these questions anywhere else. I rang the UC helpline but was given some responses that I know are wrong. I would go to the job centre and ask them, but I am unwilling to raise my profile until I know I am going to make the claim.

    Thank You
Page 2
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 11th Feb 18, 4:09 PM
    • 2,805 Posts
    • 2,767 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Transitional protection will only be put into place when managed migration starts. This hasn't started yet, therefore there's no transitional protection in place. If you move to a full universal credit area and you claim the premiums on your ESA, they will not be paid on UC.
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 5:10 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    If you move to a different council and the area is a full universal credit area then you'll have to claim UC not ESA. No one gets transitional protect yet because it doesn't exist.

    If you do move to UC then yes you'll most likely eventually need another assessment.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    Yes, I do know I'll have to move to UC, but my question is - will I lose the additional 29 a week that I currently get on ESA for having Limited Capability for Work?

    I've just read through the relevant sections of this Statutory Instrument - EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE UNIVERSAL CREDIT REGULATIONS 2013 No. 376
    which states: -
    Capability for Work
    7.22 Universal Credit will simplify the existing disability-related premiums
    and additions into two elements: the limited capability for work element and
    the limited capability for work and work-related activity element. There will
    be a single assessment for these elements, called the Work Capability
    Assessment. This assessment already applies in Employment and Support
    Allowance. This applies to claimants who are either in or out of work.
    7.23 Before these elements are payable, there will normally be a three
    month period during which the claimant will provide medical evidence and
    will be required to participate in a Work Capability Assessment. This does not
    apply:
    x where the claimant is terminally ill;
    x where the claimant already has a determination of limited capability for
    work or work-related activity on the basis of the Work Capability
    Assessment in relation to an award of Employment and Support Allowance (this is what I currently have and have it in black and white from a judge due to my Tribunal hearing on 13 October 2017)
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 11th Feb 18, 5:23 PM
    • 11,569 Posts
    • 13,475 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    Yes, I do know I'll have to move to UC, but my question is - will I lose the additional 29 a week that I currently get on ESA for having Limited Capability for Work?

    I've just read through the relevant sections of this Statutory Instrument - EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE UNIVERSAL CREDIT REGULATIONS 2013 No. 376
    which states: -
    Capability for Work
    7.22 Universal Credit will simplify the existing disability-related premiums
    and additions into two elements: the limited capability for work element and
    the limited capability for work and work-related activity element. There will
    be a single assessment for these elements, called the Work Capability
    Assessment. This assessment already applies in Employment and Support
    Allowance. This applies to claimants who are either in or out of work.
    7.23 Before these elements are payable, there will normally be a three
    month period during which the claimant will provide medical evidence and
    will be required to participate in a Work Capability Assessment. This does not
    apply:
    x where the claimant is terminally ill;
    x where the claimant already has a determination of limited capability for
    work or work-related activity on the basis of the Work Capability
    Assessment in relation to an award of Employment and Support Allowance (this is what I currently have and have it in black and white from a judge due to my Tribunal hearing on 13 October 2017)
    Originally posted by louangel311
    The answer is 'no' you will not lose your WRAG component because your claim was continuous from when it was stopped due to the appeal overturning that decision.

    If you currently receive any premiums with your ESA award because of your PIP then you would lose these.

    Having said all that, UC claims can sometimes go wrong (as attested by the original poster) so make a note of the particular legislation that has been quoted just in case you need it!
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 6:09 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    The answer is 'no' you will not lose your WRAG component because your claim was continuous from when it was stopped due to the appeal overturning that decision.

    If you currently receive any premiums with your ESA award because of your PIP then you would lose these.

    Having said all that, UC claims can sometimes go wrong (as attested by the original poster) so make a note of the particular legislation that has been quoted just in case you need it!
    Originally posted by pmlindyloo
    I'm sorry but you've confused me! You're saying I won't lose my WRAG component as my claim was continuous (which was my take on it!) but then you're saying I WILL lose premiums with my ESA? And I don't get PIP.............I haven't claimed it?

    Please believe me, I am not dense (!!) - are you saying I WILL still be classed as having Limited Capability for Work but won't get the additional 29 a week that I currently get with my ESA?

    Thank you!
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 11th Feb 18, 6:17 PM
    • 2,805 Posts
    • 2,767 Thanks
    poppy12345
    I'm sorry but you've confused me! You're saying I won't lose my WRAG component as my claim was continuous (which was my take on it!) but then you're saying I WILL lose premiums with my ESA? And I don't get PIP.............I haven't claimed it?

    Please believe me, I am not dense (!!) - are you saying I WILL still be classed as having Limited Capability for Work but won't get the additional 29 a week that I currently get with my ESA?

    Thank you!
    Originally posted by louangel311
    Pmlindyloo and my self both told you IF you recieve any premiums you will lose them. We never said you claimed a disability benefit, which was why we said IF. In your first question you asked about transitional protection, as if you claim PIP or DLA and both times your question was answered. When transitional preotection is in place it' will be there to protect those premiums.
    Last edited by poppy12345; 11-02-2018 at 6:48 PM.
    • BorisThomson
    • By BorisThomson 11th Feb 18, 6:27 PM
    • 1,586 Posts
    • 3,423 Thanks
    BorisThomson
    I'm not seeing rudeness at all, just that louangel does not understand about the various premiums. Not many people do! She has apologised for not understanding and said thank you.

    louangel, is it just the basic amount plus the WRAG component you receive?
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Feb 18, 6:35 PM
    • 2,143 Posts
    • 2,500 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Transitional protection does not apply to natural migration.
    As such if you move to a new local authority in a full service area, my understanding is that that will be a new UC claim and the LCW will not be paid.

    https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit/Additional-Elements-of-Universal-Credit#guide-content
    "(From 3 April 2017 the limited capability for work element will not be available to claimants who claim UC on or after this date); "

    If you are moving within your existing local authority, then my understanding is that this does not trigger migration to UC -
    https://www.welfare-benefits-unit.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-triggers-a-claim-for-Universal-Credit-in-a-full-service-area.pdf
    - and you should resist any pressure from your HB dept to push you onto UC.

    I would suggest getting advice from your local CAB / advice agency, and being wary of statements by DWP staff. DWP training about UC can unfortunately be quite poor.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 11-02-2018 at 6:38 PM.
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 6:42 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    Why on earth do you think I've been rude? I'm genuinely confused at the advice I've been given
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 6:45 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    I'm not seeing rudeness at all, just that louangel does not understand about the various premiums. Not many people do! She has apologised for not understanding and said thank you.

    louangel, is it just the basic amount plus the WRAG component you receive?
    Originally posted by BorisThomson
    Hi there. No I wasn't being rude at all. I genuinely didn't understand what had been said and at no time in any post have I mentioned any disability benefits.

    Yes, I get the basic amount of 73.10 plus the additional 29 for limited capability for work.

    Thank you
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 11th Feb 18, 6:52 PM
    • 2,805 Posts
    • 2,767 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Hi there. No I wasn't being rude at all. I genuinely didn't understand what had been said and at no time in any post have I mentioned any disability benefits.

    Yes, I get the basic amount of 73.10 plus the additional 29 for limited capability for work.

    Thank you
    Originally posted by louangel311
    I apologise and have edited my post. As i said because you asked about transitional protection it was assumed you were claiming a disability benefit. Which was why i also said if.
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 6:56 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    I apologise and have edited my post. As i said because you asked about transitional protection it was assumed you were claiming a disability benefit. Which was why i also said if.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    From the VAST amounts I've read - if I stay where I currently live - my area goes to full service on 14th Feb - they will start rolling out UC and everyone will be transferred over to it by 2022 - the natural migration process.

    And......if I have no change in circumstances, I'll get transitional protection hence I won't lose the additional LCW payment of 29 per week.

    Am I making sense? x
    • Ames
    • By Ames 11th Feb 18, 7:04 PM
    • 17,290 Posts
    • 30,460 Thanks
    Ames
    From the VAST amounts I've read - if I stay where I currently live - my area goes to full service on 14th Feb - they will start rolling out UC and everyone will be transferred over to it by 2022 - the natural migration process.

    And......if I have no change in circumstances, I'll get transitional protection hence I won't lose the additional LCW payment of 29 per week.

    Am I making sense? x
    Originally posted by louangel311
    ETA: Ignore this post, I was wrong.



    I think the confusion is because 'transitional protection' is used about people who will be entitled to less money on Universal Credit because of new rules. The Severe Disability Premium (63 per week for people who live alone and don't have anyone claiming carer's allowance for them) doesn't exist under UC and it's this that people usually talk about in relation to transitional protection.

    In your case there's no need for transitional protection because there's nothing to protect - the basic ESA and LCW amount do exist under UC.
    Last edited by Ames; 11-02-2018 at 7:33 PM.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Feb 18, 7:29 PM
    • 2,143 Posts
    • 2,500 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    In your case there's no need for transitional protection because there's nothing to protect - the basic ESA and LCW amount do exist under UC.
    Originally posted by Ames
    I'm not sure this is correct Ames.
    The LCW element of UC was removed for new UC claimants from April 2017 (see link in my earlier post)..
    If the OP moves to a full UC service area, then it will be a new claim at current UC rates - which now don't include any LCW element.

    UC keeps throwing up unfortunate nuances - due to cost cutting measures.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/03/universal-credit-cost-cutting-treasury-benefit-reform-resolution

    OP - are you moving from one LA to another in a full service area?
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 11-02-2018 at 7:32 PM.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 11th Feb 18, 7:32 PM
    • 17,290 Posts
    • 30,460 Thanks
    Ames
    I'm not sure this is correct Ames.
    The LCW element of UC was removed for new UC claimants from April 2017 (see link in my earlier post)..
    If the OP moves to a full UC service area, then it will be a new claim at current UC rates - which now don't include any LCW element.

    UC keeps throwing up unfortunate nuances - due to cost cutting measures.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/03/universal-credit-cost-cutting-treasury-benefit-reform-resolution
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    I didn't know that

    They're really doing their best to get rid of sickness benefits aren't they.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Feb 18, 7:39 PM
    • 2,143 Posts
    • 2,500 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I didn't know that

    They're really doing their best to get rid of sickness benefits aren't they.
    Originally posted by Ames
    But I'm not altogether definite because Pmlindyloo thinks a continuous ESA claim would attract the LCW element. And her advice is usually spot on.

    I can only suggest the OP goes to his local CAB and ask the adviser to contact their Expert Advice Team for clarification, and email him with their response.

    I hope I'm wrong, but.....
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 7:57 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    I'm not sure this is correct Ames.
    The LCW element of UC was removed for new UC claimants from April 2017 (see link in my earlier post)..
    If the OP moves to a full UC service area, then it will be a new claim at current UC rates - which now don't include any LCW element.

    OP - are you moving from one LA to another in a full service area?
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    I am looking at my options of where I could move to. I am a Housing Association tenant (as I've previously said, my area goes to full service on 14.2). I am trying to mutually exchange. I had an exchange before Christmas and had to pull out of it as the area I was moving to was a full service area, and it wasn't until I phoned their council to enquire about making a new claim for HB that I was told I couldn't and would have to claim UC. I did a lot of research and was under the impression I would lose the LCW component under UC as they stopped it as of 3.4.17.

    So, there are still "live" areas that aren't currently accepting new claims for UC (I can't put the link in for the map as I'm a new user) If I can find an exchange to one of these areas that isn't yet full, I think I can stay on ESA and HB.

    But then today I've been reading the DWP Paper (advice for decision makers) Chapters M6 and F5 and the Universal Credit (TP) Regs s 19 (1) (a) and 20 (1) (a) which imply that there are circumstances whereby a person can stay on ESA even in full service areas and not lose the LCW component.

    I think perhaps, I need to see a welfare solicitor to advise - no disrespect to the CAB, but this UC is being rolled out and is so complex, I don't want to be told the wrong information.

    Thanks
    • huckster
    • By huckster 11th Feb 18, 8:26 PM
    • 3,205 Posts
    • 1,382 Thanks
    huckster
    My understanding is thus.

    If you have to move from ESA to UC and had LCW on your ESA claim with a current prognosis period still running, then UC will allow LCW under the new UC claim.

    BUT you would need to make sure UC were aware of the previous ESA claim and when it stopped; AND when the current prognosis period is due to expire meaning a need for a new Work Capability Assessment. UC will then allow LCW and note the prognosis period end date.

    With a change of circumstances causing migration from ESA to UC, you will receive a letter from ESA saying your ESA claim will stop on x date and you have one month to start a UC claim. If you start the UC claim within the one month, then the UC start date can be backdated to the date the ESA claim closed.

    * prognosis period. When you had your WCA medical and DWP made a decision to award LCW, they would have applied a review date to your award. This is the prognosis period end date, when a new WCA medical would be required. It is to check whether your capability to work has changed or not. If the new assessment is that you don't qualify for LCW, then it will be taken away. Of course you could ask for Mandatory reconsideration and if necessary appeal.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
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