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  • FIRST POST
    • ikcdab
    • By ikcdab 24th Nov 17, 10:29 PM
    • 50Posts
    • 69Thanks
    ikcdab
    Moving from ESA to Universal Credit
    • #1
    • 24th Nov 17, 10:29 PM
    Moving from ESA to Universal Credit 24th Nov 17 at 10:29 PM
    I am 25, single, living with parents. I am being paid PIP (higher rate daily living and standard rate mobility) and ESA work related group.
    I live in a UC full service area.
    I am unemployed and unable to work - hence the PIP and ESA.
    I have been paid the two benefits since before April 2017.
    I am now moving to independant living in private rented accommodation.
    I now need to claim housing allowances and council tax credit.
    I know that to do so I need to make a new claim for UC. I am concerned about this as the PIP and ESA were hard won and I do not want to jeapordise them. My questions are:

    1. When I make the UC claim, will my ESA immediately stop and then I need to wait the usual waiting periods until the UC kicks in?
    2. If so, will I get no money during the waiting period, or would the UC get backdated to the date I make the claim?
    3. I understand I am eligible for the Limited Capability for Work Related Activity element of UC because I have current awards for ESA and PIP. If so, is this an automatic 'add on' or will I have to undertake a new work capability assessment? This to me is the critical question. How certain is it that I will be eligible for this payment?
    4. Under the 'old system', with housing benefit I would have been eligible for the shared room rate, but as I claim PIP this would have been upgraded to single room rate. Is this 'upgrade' still paid with the housing element of UC?
    5. Whatever happens, I assume that my PIP will be totally unaffected.
    6. The online calculators seem to suggest that I could get paid £317 basic UC allowance, LCWRA of £318, housing element single room rate £368. This makes £1003 plus my PIP and council tax support. This is more money than I expected which seems at odds with the general thrust of UC.

    Finally, I am posting here because I have been unable to find the answers to these questions anywhere else. I rang the UC helpline but was given some responses that I know are wrong. I would go to the job centre and ask them, but I am unwilling to raise my profile until I know I am going to make the claim.

    Thank You
Page 1
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 25th Nov 17, 10:12 AM
    • 11,478 Posts
    • 13,371 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #2
    • 25th Nov 17, 10:12 AM
    • #2
    • 25th Nov 17, 10:12 AM
    I am 25, single, living with parents. I am being paid PIP (higher rate daily living and standard rate mobility) and ESA work related group.
    I live in a UC full service area.
    I am unemployed and unable to work - hence the PIP and ESA.
    I have been paid the two benefits since before April 2017.
    I am now moving to independant living in private rented accommodation.
    I now need to claim housing allowances and council tax credit.
    I know that to do so I need to make a new claim for UC. I am concerned about this as the PIP and ESA were hard won and I do not want to jeapordise them. My questions are:

    1. When I make the UC claim, will my ESA immediately stop and then I need to wait the usual waiting periods until the UC kicks in?
    2. If so, will I get no money during the waiting period, or would the UC get backdated to the date I make the claim?
    3. I understand I am eligible for the Limited Capability for Work Related Activity element of UC because I have current awards for ESA and PIP. If so, is this an automatic 'add on' or will I have to undertake a new work capability assessment? This to me is the critical question. How certain is it that I will be eligible for this payment?
    4. Under the 'old system', with housing benefit I would have been eligible for the shared room rate, but as I claim PIP this would have been upgraded to single room rate. Is this 'upgrade' still paid with the housing element of UC?
    5. Whatever happens, I assume that my PIP will be totally unaffected.
    6. The online calculators seem to suggest that I could get paid £317 basic UC allowance, LCWRA of £318, housing element single room rate £368. This makes £1003 plus my PIP and council tax support. This is more money than I expected which seems at odds with the general thrust of UC.

    Finally, I am posting here because I have been unable to find the answers to these questions anywhere else. I rang the UC helpline but was given some responses that I know are wrong. I would go to the job centre and ask them, but I am unwilling to raise my profile until I know I am going to make the claim.

    Thank You
    Originally posted by ikcdab
    1. Your ESA will stop on the date that your UC award begins (believe you may receive 2 weeks of ESA as it is paid 2 weeks in arrears.) You will then need to wait the usual period for UC but there will be no initial 7 days wait as is for a new claim. You can ask for a short term advance of UC.

    2. Yes, UC will be backdated to the end of your ESA claim.

    3. You should receive your work related activity element of UC as your award was made before April 2017. There should be no need for a WCA.

    4. Yes, if you receive daily living of PIP then you would be entitled to the one bed rate under UC.

    5. PIP will be unaffected.

    6. I think you will receive standard rate £317.82 plus £126.11 for what was WRAG in ESA. £318.76 is, I believe, for those who were in the Support group).

    This is a useful link:

    http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/ask-cpag-online-how-does-natural-migration-universal-credit-happen

    However, natural migration when you have to claim a new means tested benefit in a full service UC area does not always go smoothly.

    People have been called for WCAs, not been given their ESA component, have had their ESA continue and received UC at the same time etc etc

    Hopefully yours will go smoothly and if they mess it up then go to CAB for some help in putting it right.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 25th Nov 17, 12:27 PM
    • 3,153 Posts
    • 1,913 Thanks
    epitome
    • #3
    • 25th Nov 17, 12:27 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Nov 17, 12:27 PM
    Hi OP

    The rates you quoted are Support Group
    WRAG would get the rate quoted above, i.e. the same as you get now.

    My understanding is that your ESA continues to pay while they process your UC, and then the amount you got paid on ESA is offset against the arrears of UC...so you won't see any real difference, except at some point you will have to start waiting 4 weeks for your next payment, so make sure you budget for this. I could be wrong, and your ESA could stop with a slight overpayment (which will be offset against UC arrears), if your ESA stops you can ask UC for STBA loans.

    You will remain in the WRAG, and get the WRAG rate of UC, but there is no requirement for the DWP to not assess you again until you would have been assessed again under ESA.... (what would be called the remainder of your ESA prognosis period)

    i.e. it is perfectly proper if you have ESA WRAG/SG and not due to be reassessed for 3 years.... then you claim UC they will pay you the relevant group rate & reassess you straight away.
    Last edited by epitome; 25-11-2017 at 12:33 PM.
    • ikcdab
    • By ikcdab 26th Nov 17, 9:43 AM
    • 50 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    ikcdab
    • #4
    • 26th Nov 17, 9:43 AM
    • #4
    • 26th Nov 17, 9:43 AM
    Thank you for the useful replies.
    So when j make the UC claim, do I claim the housing element then? I don't have to make a separate claim via the local council?
    And as for council tax support, is that only claimed via the council and not via the UC claim?
    I understand that as soon as I make the UC claim, I need to book an interview with the job centre. I assume that this is so they can heck the details such as my tenancy agreement and I also assume they would be able to advise at that point what the payments and timescales might be?
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 26th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    • 11,478 Posts
    • 13,371 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #5
    • 26th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    • #5
    • 26th Nov 17, 10:17 AM
    Thank you for the useful replies.
    So when j make the UC claim, do I claim the housing element then? I don't have to make a separate claim via the local council?
    And as for council tax support, is that only claimed via the council and not via the UC claim?
    I understand that as soon as I make the UC claim, I need to book an interview with the job centre. I assume that this is so they can heck the details such as my tenancy agreement and I also assume they would be able to advise at that point what the payments and timescales might be?
    Originally posted by ikcdab
    The housing element is part of your UC claim.

    Council Tax Reduction needs to be claimed separately from your local council.

    And yes, you will have an interview after your initial claim. You will be contacted about this by what ever method you choose on your application form.

    Have a read of this:

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/interview/prepare-for-your-interview/
    • ikcdab
    • By ikcdab 28th Nov 17, 9:52 PM
    • 50 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    ikcdab
    • #6
    • 28th Nov 17, 9:52 PM
    • #6
    • 28th Nov 17, 9:52 PM
    Thank you for the replies which are very useful.
    • ikcdab
    • By ikcdab 16th Dec 17, 9:37 AM
    • 50 Posts
    • 69 Thanks
    ikcdab
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 17, 9:37 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Dec 17, 9:37 AM
    Well so far so good. We made the online application yesterday and had an appointment straight away at the job centre. Saw a very helpful lady there who took us through all the steps and confirmed the first payment will be made on 21 January. She also confirmed the one bedroom housing payment.
    So at the moment I am optimistic it will go well. Everything has been easy. I'm hoping for no slip ups, and at the moment my experience of universal credit is e entirely positive. I'll confirm that on 15 January when we find out about the first payment amount.
    I also found that if you're claiming pip then you pay no council tax at all, at least here in Somerset.
    I'm keeping everything crossed!
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • #8
    • 1st Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Feb 18, 1:03 PM
    Hello - bumping this because my friend is in a sort-of similar situation and I need advice to pass to him.

    My friend has just moved into a UC area (from housing association to local authority housing). He was on ESA WRAG (mental health issues) and HB at his old place, single person claim. The move into UC area = change of circumstance means he's been forced to claim UC.

    At the Job Centre appt last week to prove his identity and get him onto the system, they said even though he's already on ESA, this UC claim has ended his ESA entitlement and that he needs to get a fit note to start the assessment process all over again. Problem is, having just moved into the area, he's only just applied for a GP so still waiting for the "10 days minimum" before he's fully registered and can get an appt. JC lady set the next appt to bring in fit note for the following week and to request a different appt on his "journal" if he couldn't get a fit note by then. As this was the case, he requested a different appt, JC advisor wrote back saying this was fine and gave a new appt for the week after next.

    Today he's received a phone call from her, saying that he needed to agree to this change in his journal and the things in his TO DO LIST, or he would be sanctioned?!?! And in the TO DO LIST she's sent him a page of sanction info to agree to, about what would happen if doesn't stick to his committments, and it lists all stuff about looking for work, taking any paid work he can do, and being available for interviews etc.

    I don't believe he should be agreeing to this. I've told him not to do anything until I've read the UC rules that the JC staff have to stick to.

    ALSO in my mind I feel as he's already on ESA, he shouldn't be having to get a fit note to prove he's too ill to work - surely that by being awarded ESA the government has aleady "approved" his entitlement?

    So please, could someone point me to the Universal Credit rules for Job Centre workers please? And if anyone has advice regarding anything I've written above, please do let me know.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by r.a.i.n.b.o.w; 01-02-2018 at 1:05 PM.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 1st Feb 18, 2:45 PM
    • 11,478 Posts
    • 13,371 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #9
    • 1st Feb 18, 2:45 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Feb 18, 2:45 PM
    Hello - bumping this because my friend is in a sort-of similar situation and I need advice to pass to him.

    My friend has just moved into a UC area (from housing association to local authority housing). He was on ESA WRAG (mental health issues) and HB at his old place, single person claim. The move into UC area = change of circumstance means he's been forced to claim UC.

    At the Job Centre appt last week to prove his identity and get him onto the system, they said even though he's already on ESA, this UC claim has ended his ESA entitlement and that he needs to get a fit note to start the assessment process all over again. Problem is, having just moved into the area, he's only just applied for a GP so still waiting for the "10 days minimum" before he's fully registered and can get an appt. JC lady set the next appt to bring in fit note for the following week and to request a different appt on his "journal" if he couldn't get a fit note by then. As this was the case, he requested a different appt, JC advisor wrote back saying this was fine and gave a new appt for the week after next.

    Today he's received a phone call from her, saying that he needed to agree to this change in his journal and the things in his TO DO LIST, or he would be sanctioned?!?! And in the TO DO LIST she's sent him a page of sanction info to agree to, about what would happen if doesn't stick to his committments, and it lists all stuff about looking for work, taking any paid work he can do, and being available for interviews etc.

    I don't believe he should be agreeing to this. I've told him not to do anything until I've read the UC rules that the JC staff have to stick to.

    ALSO in my mind I feel as he's already on ESA, he shouldn't be having to get a fit note to prove he's too ill to work - surely that by being awarded ESA the government has aleady "approved" his entitlement?

    So please, could someone point me to the Universal Credit rules for Job Centre workers please? And if anyone has advice regarding anything I've written above, please do let me know.

    Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    To see whether the Job Centre has given the correct advice we need to know the date your friend was awarded their ESA WRAG - i.e when did they apply? And when was it awarded?
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 3:15 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    He was awarded it in 2011, he's had three ATOS assessments since claiming it in 2010.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 1st Feb 18, 3:30 PM
    • 11,478 Posts
    • 13,371 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    He was awarded it in 2011, he's had three ATOS assessments since claiming it in 2010.
    Originally posted by r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    Based on what you have said then the Job Centre are wrong.

    If a claimant receives an old style WRAG component and it was awarded before 3/4/2017 then they will be treated as having LCW and will be entitled to the relevant extra money in their UC claim.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661772/admm6.pdf

    M6190 onwards

    Having said that, please tell us whether your friend receives extra money in their UC claim for having LCW as it may be that they are being reassessed (not sure about needing fit notes during this time though)
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 1st Feb 18, 3:43 PM
    • 2,027 Posts
    • 2,343 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Have a look at this:
    https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Universal_Credit_Work_Capability_Assessment
    which says "In some circumstances you can be treated as having limited capability for work in Universal Credit without having to go through the work capability assessment, for example if you ......
    If you move to Universal Credit from Employment and Support Allowance and have already been assessed as having limited capability for work you will not have to undertake the assessment again. If you were in the work related activity group you will be awarded the LCW element and if you were in the support group you will be awarded the LCWRA element."

    So, I think the JC coach is incorrect, but I don't have the UC regulations to quote though.

    There is a lot of misinformation / misunderstanding within the JC / DWP about UC, and I'm not sure how he could remedy this.

    Suggestions might include:
    1) Copying this info to his journal, asking for clarification.
    2) You & your friend ring the JC and ask to speak to a manager - You then speak on behalf of your friend, once he has given permission.
    3) You & your friend contact your local CAB.
    4) You & your friend ring the UC helpline (although their knowledge can be very limited - you may have to insist on a call back from someone more clued up).

    Hopefully (if I'm right on this) pmlindyloo may be able to provide the UC regulations reference, which you can quote at the DWP.

    EDIT: Cross posted with pmlindyloo who has indeed provided the UC regulations reference, which you can quote at the DWP.
    Thanks pmllinyloo
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 01-02-2018 at 3:45 PM.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 1st Feb 18, 3:43 PM
    • 11,478 Posts
    • 13,371 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    If he was on ESA WRAG then he should be placed in the work preparation group.

    Details of the requirements:

    https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Universal-Credit/Claimant-Commitment-Conditionality
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 3:49 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    He's still at the very beginning of his UC claim - he moved 2 weeks ago and applied for UC/saw JC last week. He's been told he can't claim UC as an ill person/limited capability until they see a fit note, but he can't get that fit note until his new GP has him fully registered. He's had one payment - an "advance" payment (ie: a loan) which he was told he has to pay back over the next 12 months. There was no breakdown as to what this covers.

    I just don't understand why they 1) need a fit note when a previous ESA award (which ended upon the UC application) proves that he has limited capability, and 2) are warning him about sanction for non compliance when there was nothing on the info sheet that he had to agree to regarding ESA or limited capability.

    EDIT: cross posed with both of you
    Last edited by r.a.i.n.b.o.w; 01-02-2018 at 3:51 PM.
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 4:22 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    Thank you both - he's querying with his work coach, with a request to be pointed at the correct info if they say he's wrong. Thanks!
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 6:27 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    Just an update - I wrote a note for him and on behalf of him, part of it said:
    "According to https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Universal_Credit_Work_Capability_Assessment - “If you move to Universal Credit from Employment and Support Allowance and have already been assessed as having limited capability for work you will not have to undertake the assessment again. If you were in the work related activity group you will be awarded the LCW element and if you were in the support group you will be awarded the LCWRA element.” This means that as [his name-redacted] has already been assessed as having LCW he shouldn’t be having supply a GP’s fit note, as these are only required at the assessment phase of a UC claim and therefore unnecessary for a UC claimant who is migrating from ESA. Please could you look into this, and if I am incorrect, please send links to the relevant legislation."


    His work coach has replied "it is a requirement under UC" to supply the fit note if his commitment to "intensive work seaches" is to change. She supplied no links.

    Thanks in advance



    .
    Last edited by r.a.i.n.b.o.w; 01-02-2018 at 6:31 PM.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 1st Feb 18, 7:32 PM
    • 2,027 Posts
    • 2,343 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Try quoting from: The Universal Credit (Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2014 -

    Transition from old style ESA

    Regulation 19.—(1) This regulation applies where—
    (a) an award of universal credit is made to a claimant who was entitled to old style ESA on
    the date on which the claim for universal credit was made or treated as made (“the
    relevant date”); and
    (b) on or before the relevant date it had been determined that the claimant was entitled to
    the work-related activity component or to the support component.
    (2) Where, on or before the relevant date, it had been determined that the claimant was entitled
    to the work-related activity component—
    (a) regulation 27(3) of the Universal Credit Regulations (award to include LCW and
    LCWRA elements) does not apply; and
    (b) the claimant is to be treated as having limited capability for work for the purposes of
    regulation 27(1)(a) of those Regulations and section 21(1)(a) of the Act.


    And, of course, limited capability for work certainly does not include "intensive work searches"

    But, given that your friend will have an ongoing relationship with this work coach then she needs to be corrected in the most diplomatic fashion possible.

    I think she is wrong, which is why she cannot quote any UC regulations to support her case.
    She is perhaps getting confused, as had you friend transitioned to UC without an ESA award, then he would indeed need to supply a fit notes in order to change his claimant commitment.
    • r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    • By r.a.i.n.b.o.w 1st Feb 18, 7:53 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 3,195 Thanks
    r.a.i.n.b.o.w
    BRILLIANT! Absolutely brilliant!! Thank you!
    • louangel311
    • By louangel311 11th Feb 18, 2:35 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    louangel311
    I've been reading this thread with interest and am PRAYING someone can give me an answer to this!

    I've been in receipt of ESA since December 2012 in the WRAG group. On 27 February 2017, the DWP decided I was fit for work and took my ESA off me I spent 8 months going through a Mandatory Reconsideration and a Tribunal........which I won I had my ESA reinstated on 13 October 2017 - the judge overturned the Secretary of State's decision to take my ESA off me on 27 February 2017.

    So.......does that mean I have had a continuous ESA claim since December 2012?

    I want to move home, to a different area. My current area is a Universal Credit "live" area and goes to full service on 14.2.18. I know if I have no change in circumstances i.e. I DON'T move, I'll get transitional protection and won't be any worse off.

    So.......my question is - if I move to a full service UC area will this be classed as a change in circumstances and - will they take my Limited Capability for Work component away from me and will I have to undergo another WCA to see if under the UC rules I'm classed as having limited capability for work?

    If my LCW element isn't protected, I can't make the move as I'll be £124.20 every four weeks, worse off.

    Thank you
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 11th Feb 18, 4:02 PM
    • 2,578 Posts
    • 2,555 Thanks
    poppy12345
    I've been reading this thread with interest and am PRAYING someone can give me an answer to this!

    I've been in receipt of ESA since December 2012 in the WRAG group. On 27 February 2017, the DWP decided I was fit for work and took my ESA off me I spent 8 months going through a Mandatory Reconsideration and a Tribunal........which I won I had my ESA reinstated on 13 October 2017 - the judge overturned the Secretary of State's decision to take my ESA off me on 27 February 2017.

    So.......does that mean I have had a continuous ESA claim since December 2012?

    I want to move home, to a different area. My current area is a Universal Credit "live" area and goes to full service on 14.2.18. I know if I have no change in circumstances i.e. I DON'T move, I'll get transitional protection and won't be any worse off.

    So.......my question is - if I move to a full service UC area will this be classed as a change in circumstances and - will they take my Limited Capability for Work component away from me and will I have to undergo another WCA to see if under the UC rules I'm classed as having limited capability for work?

    If my LCW element isn't protected, I can't make the move as I'll be £124.20 every four weeks, worse off.

    Thank you
    Originally posted by louangel311
    If you move to a different council and the area is a full universal credit area then you'll have to claim UC not ESA. No one gets transitional protect yet because it doesn't exist.

    If you do move to UC then yes you'll most likely eventually need another assessment.
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