CEL claims general advice

Loadsofchildren123 · 29 October 2017 at 12:50PM

NEWBIES this is for information and reference only. If you have queries please START YOUR OWN THREAD and don’t post them here

There are so many of these at the moment I think it’s sensible to have a general advice thread.

CEL are now issuing claims which state that further PoC are “to follow”.
The CPR state that such PoC must be served within 14 days of the date the Claim is deemed served (date on Claim Form plus 5 days)- see R7.4(2).

If you receive a claim like this you do not have to acknowledge service until after the further PoC have been served and time does not start to run for serving the AoS or the defence until after they have been served.

The forms for defending/acknowledging service are NOT supposed to be served at this stage, they are supposed to be served with the further PoC. However, CEL are including them at this stage because they clearly hope that LiPs will complete the AoS in error and will be rushed into drafting a poor defence ahead of time. Many people are mistakenly preparing defences prior to receiving the further PoCs.

The forms for defending and acknowledging service are supposed to be provided with the further PoCs (CPR 7.8). If they have not been then this is another complaint to add to the letters to CEL and the court(to which I refer below).

What CEL do next is fail to file the further PoC within the 14 day time limit. (They send them much later - see below).

At this stage it is open to a Defendant to draw this to the court’s attention and ask for the claim to be dismissed unless CEL apply for relief from sanctions under CPR rule 3.9 or an extension of time for service. Technically if PoC are then served without permission they are invalid.

Most Ds do not realise this and mistakenly file their AoS/defence and don’t make any complaint.

Precedent complaint letters are posted on other CEL threads from this week and I will link them in on Monday.

CEL then serve the PoCs which are backdated, and are sent with a backdated letter which gives the impression they are in time (lots served this week dated 11 Oct but not posted until 24/25th).

Look at your envelope - compare the date stamp on it to the date on the PoC. Keep your envelope as evidence of late service.

If there is a discrepancy meaning the PoC have been served out of time you need to write to them and the court to complain and ask for the claim to be struck out in the absence of CEL making an application for relief from sanctions under CPR 3.9. Precedent letters are on other threads from this week. I will try to link them in on Monday.

Add to these letters a complaint that the documents specified in R7.8 have not been served on you.

The question is then what do you do about filing an AoS and then a defence. Technically the PoC are not valid as they are out of time and the court has not given permission for late service. You could either (1) write to the court and CEL to make it clear that you cannot serve your AoS until the court has determined that issue, or (2) just file your AoS and then your defence.

If you choose the first option, you wait to hear back from the court in response to your letter. There is a risk that CEL apply for judgment in default, but the court should reject this given your letter regarding the invalid/out of time PoC. And if it doesn’t you have an open and shut case for a set aside.

The second option protects you from this risk but may mean that the court then doesn’t deal with your complaint and CEL get away with it.

The time for serving your defence (once you decide not to pursue a complaint or just to carry on assuming the timetable is running -option 2 above) runs from the date the PoC were actually served (not the date on them or the covering letter which may be very different). The time limit is set out in CPR rule 15.4(1) and it clearly runs from date of service. To avoid CEL claiming you are out of time (ie the date of service was the date on the documents NOT the date they were actually sent/received) you must write to CEL recording the date on which they were posted and deemed served, with evidence of the postmark on the envelope. The date a document is served is the next working day after it’s been posted (Rule 6.20(1)(b)). Tell them what you consider this date to be and make it clear you will be serving your AoS 14 days thereafter (on x date) and the defence 28 days after the PoC were served (and for the avoidance of doubt specify the date you calculate this to be). You should send a letter to the court specifying these dates too, so they don’t think you are out of time (the court will not have looked at the date of the postmark on CEL’s correspondence so will not know that they served the PoC much later than claimed).

Even if your letter to the court succeeds in getting the claim struck out, it may be something of a Pyrrhic victory because CEL still have 6 years from the PCN to re-issue a claim and get it right. However CEL may just not bother.

Lamilad · 29 October 2017 at 1:54PM

Absolutely brilliant LoC. I have been thinking for a while that we need a dedicated 'CEL Court Case' thread... So glad you have done this.

I think you may need something at the top in bold, underlined, block capitals saying ' NEWBIES: this thread is for information only - do not post your questions here'

Otherwise the thread will quickly become overwhelmed with the same pointless queries.

Loadsofchildren123 · 29 October 2017 at 3:11PM

Good point Lamilad, done it now

The_Deep · 29 October 2017 at 3:36PM

Has this been brought to the attention of the SRA? If not, why not put up a draft complaint which we can all send individually.

Umkomaas · 29 October 2017 at 4:00PM

This is just so helpful LoC. The forum has been getting overwhelmed by CEL case, after CEL case, after CEL case....... We’ve been in danger of drowning if we haven’t already exploded? My patience can be thin at times.

Just something for you to consider for inclusion by way of an introduction and explanation of the CEL business strategy at play here.

You are one of hundreds, maybe thousands, currently being hit by CEL’s strategy of issuing county court claims. This is an automated process; you have not been singled out for ‘special treatment’.

Their strategy is to intimidate recipients with official court documentation so they meekly pay up out of fear. For those who ignore the claim, CEL will almost certainly apply for a default judgment and if that is further ignored credit ratings are potentially compromised with really serious consequences. Almost all those affected will then have to face dealing with CEL and their inflated default judgment.

Those who come to the forum to receive help with the work they need to do to address their problem by developing a robust defence and completing subsequent paperwork are likely to see CEL eventually back off via a discontinuance of their court claim. This won’t be instant, but somewhere further into the process and often almost right up to the wire.

I’ve drafted that obviously in my own style, but if you do want to include it (or any part) and want to re-phrase anything in your own writing style, please feel free to do so.

With or without my suggestion, I think you’ve made a massive contribution to the forum today. Thank you.

Loadsofchildren123 · 29 October 2017 at 4:49PM

Umkomaas, thank you. I don’t think I need to add this to my original post, I was hoping that others would add general insight into CEL claims and welcome additions to the thread like yours. I hope others will do likewise.

I created the thread because we have all been repeating ourselves excessively over the last week answering the same issues over and over. CEL seems to have issued a huge batch of claims all at once and I was hoping a general advice would stop early mistakes being made.

Redx · 29 October 2017 at 5:03PM

excellent advice from the contributors here

here is a link to explanations by johnnersh posted recently in another useful thread

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73316652&postcount=38

and here are the original BARGEPOLE links and others (from the NEWBIES sticky thread) so people can see how it used to be and that some advice and steps are mainly still the same, especially once the actual AOS has been completed, even though this may be a delayed AOS due to what is stated by LoC123 in post #1 and by johnnersh as well

IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT YOU MUST DO AND BY WHEN!

Here is a walk-through the process from defence onwards (i.e. AFTER acknowledgement of service) by Loadsofchildren123:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72244727#post72244727

Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

Here is his advice about how to set out your defence, which bargepole recommends is best posted:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71228944#post71228944

Irrelevant Defences and How To Avoid Them - what NOT to argue (DO NOT ARGUE ''NO LOSS' OR 'EXTORTIONATE CHARGE'):

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5555458

Do not think putting in the defence is your only job. Directions Questionnaire must be completed and returned to the claimant and the court, explained by IamEmanresu:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=71763411#post71763411

if I have left anyone out I apologise as I am sure there are other useful contributions to be made or have already been made elsewhere , if so I will link those as well (below)

such as the LoC123 explanation on claiming court costs before the court date

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73255780&postcount=25

here is a link to post #24 where I outlined how to email the final defence to the CCBC

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5729270&page=2

and perhaps coupon-mad can add this thread to post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread ?

and add the acronyms in post #1 to post #5 of the NEWBIES sticky thread ?

perhaps edit the other CM posts as well slightly so they show as all being up to date ?

Redx · 29 October 2017 at 11:29PM

add all the good info to the NEWBIES sticky thread into one or two posts , then pm crabman and ask him to add his warning below it and remove his previous warning above

that way you can edit that new post and he can remove all the subsequent !!!! like he does now (and they can be reported as spam too)

Loadsofchildren123 · 29 October 2017 at 11:51PM

I’ll have a go at writing a full guide with the precedents and then do that. If it’s locked then of course the advantage is it is also protected from 100 of the same questions!

safarmuk · 30 October 2017 at 12:13PM

+1 for adding this to the sticky in a specific post titled "CEL Claims General Advice - as of DD/MM/YYYY". We can then refer everyone to that post rather than a thread that will float up and down the forum pages as and when it is posted on.

By the way LOC123 - great post. Always appreciated.

The_Deep · 31 October 2017 at 12:30PM

This appals me. It reminds be of Bleak house.

Is the small claims track not meant to be consumer friendly? A device for the MOTCO to sue a plumber for a shoddy job without getting solicitors involved?
If the answer is yes, then imo it has lost its way.

While I may have the ability to understand it if I devote enough time and effort to it, not every has either.

Where is justice for dummies?

CEL claims general advice

Comments

Categories

Get our FREE Weekly email full of deals & guides - and it’s spam-free