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    • pensionpawn
    • By pensionpawn 12th Apr 19, 10:19 PM
    • 188Posts
    • 156Thanks
    Equitable Life with profits pension / takeover.
    • #1
    • 12th Apr 19, 10:19 PM
    Equitable Life with profits pension / takeover. 12th Apr 19 at 10:19 PM
    I thought I would open a thread for everyone who have a pension with them who may wish to share their experience and offer advice while we wait for the resolution of the take over.

    I was within days of commencing a transfer to a Sipp last summer when the news broke and have stayed put watching my fund continue to grow at 3.5% whilst this all sorts itself out.

    I have seen no news since around last October. Does anyone else have anything to add?

    Equitable Life
    Last edited by pensionpawn; 12-04-2019 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Inclusion of link to Equitable Life.
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    • Buffa
    • By Buffa 7th Oct 19, 9:32 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    I meant that, at the time they vote, policyholders are taking a risk on the value of the uplift which they wont know for sure until later. I do not know at what point after the second court hearing EL will advise policyholders what their uplift will be (precisely). Between that date and the implementation date (1 January 2020). EL / Utmost have a risk of a financial setback but, as you indicate, this risk may be covered by insurance.
    • Buffa
    • By Buffa 7th Oct 19, 9:35 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    My point was that, EL really should have been able to set a guaranteed bottom limit to the uplift, especially so if they have the insurance mentioned.
    • Buffa
    • By Buffa 8th Oct 19, 11:08 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    I have just heard from JLT that the definitive uplifts will not be known (or communicated) until the Implementation Date (1 Jan 2020) and that there will be no, more accurate, revised estimates of the uplifts in the meantime.
    • pafpcg
    • By pafpcg 8th Oct 19, 4:55 PM
    • 400 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    Uplift Calculation Date
    I have just heard from JLT that the definitive uplifts will not be known (or communicated) until the Implementation Date (1 Jan 2020) and that there will be no, more accurate, revised estimates of the uplifts in the meantime.
    Originally posted by Buffa
    Thanks for that clarification.

    In my expectattion that Equitable would give us a true and fair proposal document, I had assumed that we'd know the Primary Uplift in October, based on these two quotes from the Explanatory Booklet Part B.

    Quote from the Timetable on page9:
    "Calculation Date 30 September 2019 The date at which certain values which form part of the Secondary Uplift calculation will be calculated."

    Quote from paragraph 20.47 on page18:
    "Step 2 Calculate the Primary Uplift
    Once we know what the Secondary Uplift Amounts will be, we will be able to calculate the total assets which are available to be allocated through the Primary Uplift.

    A closer examination of that first quote reveals that I've fallen into a mistaken assumption and that the calculation of "certain values" on the Calculation Date does not preclude that there are still further values in the Secondary Uplift which are unknown on the Calculation Date. Silly me!
    • Maffo65
    • By Maffo65 8th Oct 19, 5:46 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    In view of this uncertainty about the actual size of uplifts until the Implementation Date, is anyone now thinking of voting against the Proposal?

    At this stage I'm still inclined to vote in favour, and it seems to me that most people who posted on this thread sounded likely to do so.

    Any dissenters?
    Last edited by Maffo65; 08-10-2019 at 5:56 PM.
    • tomargyll
    • By tomargyll 9th Oct 19, 5:01 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    I am afraid I am still not convinced. And to date will probably vote against.

    Why ,,,,, it's down to the fact we don't have the final uplift values to vote for. We vote for the proposal then they in a whim reduce the estimated uplift values we have without any redress for the policyholders. Mmmmmm The policy uplifts we have at present look very good,,,, However if they are not confirmed as final then we can be taken for a complete bunch of suckers.

    I remember vividly when we got an uplift in our values in return for giving up our GAR's for only in a few months to lose that uplift and more when the cut the policy values.

    So I will probably vote No, as I just don't trust them.
    • Mordko
    • By Mordko 10th Oct 19, 1:11 AM
    • 423 Posts
    • 195 Thanks
    The threat of courts provides at least some protection against an arbitrary reduction.
    • JohnWinder
    • By JohnWinder 10th Oct 19, 12:32 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    Iím lost in the primary, secondary etc uplifts, and too time poor now to wade through screens of info. ButÖ..some assumptions about the period between their notification of Ďbest estimateí of total uplift (Time 1), and the total uplift being paid to policy holders (Time 2):
    Firstly, some policy holders during this period will die and be paid out, and others may be forced to liquidate without the total uplift. EL canít know how many of these there will be.
    Secondly, the bonds they hold (ELís main assets) will change in value during that period; bond prices change in value as frequently as share prices (and as unpredictably) unless you hold them to maturity. Thereís no way all of ELís bonds mature on December 31; and thereís no way EL can predict their future value other than at maturity. Perhaps they solved this with some insurance of futures contracts.
    Thirdly, the money EL spends in that period on the Ďfreeí financial advice being offered to policy holders is surely unknown as it depends on how many people request that advice.
    Fourthly, ELís staffing and running costs during that period canít possibly be known precisely.
    From which I conclude that EL canít have known (at Time 1) how much money will be available at TIme 2. So should they have guaranteed the Time 2 uplift, and risked closing the business at Time 2 with money left over, or short changed policy holders if there was insufficient money for any of the above reasons (or any other basis for uncertainty of final residual assets, that exists)? I canít see any business choosing that approach, which leaves them with only one option - estimate but donít guarantee the final uplift.
    • allgreek
    • By allgreek 11th Oct 19, 10:10 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Drawdown from Utmost
    Today I got another letter from Equitable urging me to vote. It included a leaflet from Utmost which contains a section headed OUR PRODUCTS. The text in this section says:
    We're developing Utmost Drawdown for customers wishing to access their pension pots flexibly, to be available early 2020.
    I searched on the Utmost web site and "drawdown" was only found on one page which says the same as the leaflet (in different words).

    This looks to me like Utmost don't have a plan for anything until it becomes clear they will need to have one. How can a pension company not have a drawdown plan? If I want to do drawdown after the transfer to Utmost, I will be voting for the "Proposal" [Utmost's term] without any idea how "Utmost Drawdown" will work. Perhaps they will large charges for every drawdown.

    I can't find anything to inspire confidence in Utmost.
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