Seller won't accept return

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Hello!
Did have a read through a few pages and couldn't find this here, many apologies if it's something that gets asked every day.
So, I was under the understanding that buying online/specifically ebay is covered under law and that sellers have to accept returns, for whatever reason, within either 7 or 14 days, which this was.
I've had a bit of a nightmare experience (first one for a while) from someone who is allegedly a private seller but seems to sell an awful lot of stuff - presumably staying just under the limits so they can not pay business rates or play by business rules. They refused to accept my return and because I'd clicked 'changed my mind' as the reason, they were allowed to close the case by ebay and not refund me. I'm happy to send it back and pay postage but it's not what I wanted. I did ask a couple of questions and I was pretty sure it was but unfortunately it's something that even in photographs looked like what I wanted, but it isn't. 'Ordered by mistake' seemed the best fit.
Had a bizarre call with ebay, some manager who sounded like he'd been watching too much Wolf on Wall Street and kept going on about how I need to 'outsmart the seller', I must 'never ever ever click on ordered by mistake but as item not described' because now 'I can't help you'. He said 'your last chance' is to open a case via paypal saying it's not as described. But that seems dishonest to me, I haven't checked carefully but it doesn't seem to be broken either, which are the only two options to open a dispute on there. It's the Internet, it's hard to know sometimes if something will fit, or what colour it is, or whatever, but I'd never worried about it before as I assumed the law covered me if I wanted to send something back. I thought that that law was there exactly to get people to feel safe buying online BECAUSE you can't see the thing or physically touch it or whatever.
I had no idea there was a difference between 'business' and 'private' sellers and that private sellers are told they don't have to accept returns if they don't want to. I thought by law everyone had to?
Mr Wolf just laughed and said 'I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, what can I say' but if they're ebay it's up to them to know the law that relates to their business and follow it properly, isn't it? Not laugh as if it's some quaint thing us Brits have that they find charming.
Also, since that's a massive difference, I wish they'd make it more obvious which sellers are private and which are businesses. I didn't even know there WERE two different tiers of sellers until today.
I'm confused, both as to whether I'm in the right here - I understand returns are a hassle, but I'd be losing out on the return postage with not much left over to show too (it's quite heavy), I didn't do it on purpose. I was reasonably sure it was the thing I wanted. Getting it, in the light, it's not.
I asked some friends and they all say that I should open the paypal case as 'not as described' and just get my money back, the seller has behaved in a kind of dishonest way anyway (trying to keep this short, but their behaviour and communication has been very poor). But I have a real thing about lying and it doesn't feel right to me.
But then neither does letting it go if those are my rights. Has anyone tried to get ebay to force sellers to accept returns when they don't want to? Or gotten them to refund you as a 'goodwill payment' when you mention the law or whatever? Mr Wolf said they don't give goodwill payments, but they definitely do, they gave one to a friend of mine after his own nightmare experience, when by some reason they didn't want to force the buyer to cough up, so they just paid him from their own money instead. I've been on ebay for about, 13 years (although I don't use it much), I thought that might count for something, but apparently not. Trying to tell some bloke who lives in the Philippines that you're really upset and ebay is about to lose a loyal customer because I no longer feel like I can trust online shopping has zero effect, he couldn't give a monkey's.
Also, if the law has been updated or changed, perhaps that's it, but as far as I know it's (they made me remove the link as I'm new, which is annoying, so you'll have to find it yourself - it's on the which site under consumer contract regulations, which replaced the distance selling regulations in 2014).
It was a buy it now, not an auction, and was under £42. I've seen £42 as a threshold in a few places but not sure if that means it's not covered or that's a different law.
Anyway, hopefully someone out there has advice. I'm thinking snail mail letter to their UK head office? I'd also be interested to know what other people think I should do - let it go or chase the refund. I honestly don't want it, so if I can't send it back it will go to a charity shop or the bin, which is sad, I'd rather return it to the seller so they can hopefully resell it to someone else who will want it. It's unused.
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Comments

  • ballisticbrian
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    Leave neutral or negative feedback for the seller stating factually how they dealt with your complaint, then list the item for sale stating clearly what it actually is, assuming it will still be worth £42. You will of course loose your eBay and PayPal fees, but you will hopefully not loose any more sleep over it.
    Warning: any unnecessary disclaimers appearing under my posts do not bear any connection with reality, either intended, accidental or otherwise. Your statutory rights are not affected.
  • meowmeow2019
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    Thanks for your quick reply, Brian. Negative feedback is something I had forgotten about, so yes, I suppose that's an option, perhaps by leaving it they might change their mind, and want it removed in return for the return (so to speak).
    I don't think the item is worth £42. It was listed at £20 for quite some time and didn't sell (I've been waiting to get paid), then suddenly the price jumped to double £40, presumably because the seller knew I wanted it (to condense it into a nutshell). I imagine it would not be bought, although on ebay who can tell? Unfortunately I live in a very small town so can't offer it without postage for local collection (or rather I can, but it's unlikely to happen unless you live in London or somewhere).
    But yes, negative feedback. I usually don't leave any feedback at all in these cases as I'm never sure who's being the jerk, but there's been so many things with this one that I probably will.
  • PDC
    PDC Posts: 805 Forumite
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    Hard to follow what was the issue with what you bought from your first post but as above, I would just resell it, if I was sold what I'd bought - Unless you really want to spend more time on this.
  • askmeaboutsofas
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    I can't tell from your post what the difference was, but I'm assuming from what you've said that you accidentally ordered the wrong thing and it's not the sellers fault?
    There's no law to force private sellers to accept returns, the law requiring people to accept returns is only for businesses selling online. In the same way that you feel it's not worth the cost of postage to send it back, it would be rather unfair on private sellers if they had to factor in the cost of returns when they're just clearing their own secondhand stuff.
    Whatever you do about feedback, you can not say to the seller "take it back or I'll leave negative feedback", or "if you take it back I will remove my negative feedback". That is called feedback extortion, and it's against eBay rules.


    Selling it on is probably the best way to recoup some of your losses here.
    Well informed on the subjects of sofas and wood furniture, and well opinionated on everything else :rotfl:
  • meowmeow2019
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    Thanks all for responses, I appreciate your time.
    As I said before, I don't think selling it on will get any interest (being a little bit vague here deliberately as I don't really want to say something that could potentially identify the seller). It was up for £20 for a very long time, the minute I started asking questions about the item to try to check it was what I wanted, it suddenly went up to £40. I don't think anyone else is going to spend £40 on it, or even £20.
    I wasn't thinking of extorting anyone, I was just thinking more of leaving negative feedback and seeing what happened since someone else mentioned it. I'm hoping maybe they'll want that removed and contact me.
    Askmeabout... not trying to be facetious but do you know that as a fact? Because after reading through the law (that I can't link to because it won't let me post links) there's no differentation between private and business sellers. You sell something online, you've got to accept returns. There are lots of exceptions, auctions aren't covered but buy it nows are (no idea why), for perishable goods or goods that were tailor made etc. This doesn't fall into any of those categories.
    You're right, essentially it is the wrong thing, it's my mistake I guess. The seller could have sent better pictures, but I think it falls under 'remorse' as ebay calls it.
    Ebay POLICY says that private sellers don't have to accept returns in these cases but I believe (and again, this is why I'm asking here, I'm not sure) that the actual UK law is that they have to.
    I sell a bit too, and I've always accepted returns on remorse items, as long as the buyer is willing to pay postage and it's returned in the same state it was sent in. I just think it's best not to p*** people off, some people seem to get really mad on ebay, which is another reason I am trying to take a step back and ask some other people's opinions.
    I was unaware as a private seller that you could state 'no returns'. I don't think it's actually legal, I think it's eBay deciding it doesn't care about the law, it's decided that's not its policy.
    As to it not being fair, well no, I suppose not, but then I don't think anybody orders something with the intention of getting something they didn't want and then spending money on postage to return it and suffering a loss with nothing to show for it.
    Like I say, I believe the whole point of the law is it's different to a car boot sale or whatever similar ways you can sell something as people can't see something before they buy it.
    I don't know, I suppose at the heart of it I am just a bit worried about how these tech companies basically decide their own laws, which is what seems to be happening here.
  • mgdavid
    mgdavid Posts: 6,705 Forumite
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    ........, I suppose at the heart of it I am just a bit worried about how these tech companies basically decide their own laws, which is what seems to be happening here.


    They do it to protect themselves from people who don't bother to check thoroughly enough, then order the wrong stuff and expect the seller to fall over backwards to put right the buyer's mistake at seller's cost.
    The questions that get the best answers are the questions that give most detail....
  • the_lunatic_is_in_my_head
    the_lunatic_is_in_my_head Posts: 7,597 Forumite
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    edited 15 March 2019 at 5:24PM
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    Because after reading through the law (that I can't link to because it won't let me post links) there's no differentation between private and business sellers. You sell something online, you've got to accept returns.

    Only businesses are obligated to accept returns with regards to change of mind.

    If the goods do not match the description you have recourse against a private seller but goods don't have to be fit for purpose, etc, just as described.

    If the goods were as described then leaving bad feedback for a private seller because they refused a change of mind return when the listing said no returns in the return info box at the bottom (and wasn't contradicted anywhere else, listing description, messages, etc) wouldn't be acceptable.
  • NaughtiusMaximus
    NaughtiusMaximus Posts: 2,832 Forumite
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    edited 15 March 2019 at 5:30PM
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    You're right, essentially it is the wrong thing, it's my mistake I guess.

    Exactly.

    Expecting the seller to pay for your mistake is morally wrong regardless of the legal position.
  • meowmeow2019
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    I'm afraid I don't agree - just because YOU don't like a law, doesn't mean it's okay not to follow it. There's a system to change these things if you disagree with them but you via lobbying your MP and petitions etc and eBay can't just disregard it because you don't like it (or think it's morally wrong - which is debatable, I don't, as I say no one WANTS to end up with something they didn't actually want by mistake).

    You make it sound like eBay is coming out in favour of the little guy, helping you out here by ignoring this law. Not sure, to be honest, what their reasoning is, but I think we can pretty much assume it's NOT alturistic.

    Seller wouldn't be paying - they would have the item back and I'd have my money back. We'd both be out one lot of postage. They could resell the item, which is apparently worth £40 now as everyone seems to think I should do. In the future perhaps they will post better pictures, not double the price of things if people express interest and I will... well probably never buy online in future from private sellers, most definitely. I am not even sure where to see someone's status and whether or not they're business sellers, but I presume the info is there somewhere. I'm not buying from private sellers again.

    I find it interesting that no one else seems to agree. The fact is, I was aware of this law and assumed ebay followed it, and that's been a big part of the reason why I've bought so much online (and not bothered to check if they were private or business based etc) over the last few years. Without it, and now knowing that ebay won't follow it makes me rethink that. So this transaction would not have happened if I had the knowledge that I have now, which would have been for the best, but then so would MANY other problem free ones I've made in the last 13 years. The law is there precisely so people order lots of things online, mostly people can't bother to return things they don't like or want any more anyway, or they're too cheap to make it worth the effort, so there'll only be a very small percentage of times it actually happens.

    In this case, I would have asked more questions but the seller doubled the price of the item after the first two. No one protected ME from THAT. I consider that to be morally wrong behaviour but there you are. Perhaps it's just being a clever little capitalist.

    As to the negative feedback, don't worry, they did plenty of other dodgy stuff to merit it. I don't even have to mention the return. The whole thing was a mess.

    If anyone actually has any idea how I would pursue this legally or is an expert in consumer law and can confirm I have interpreted it correctly or has experience in doing this themselves, please let me know. I'm sorry if you think I'm 'morally wrong' but you know, at least I didn't go ahead and open a Paypal dispute saying it was damaged or something, which is what eBay suggested I do (still can't believe that phone call, surreal). Anyway.
  • d123
    d123 Posts: 8,624 Forumite
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    Thanks all for responses, I appreciate your time.
    As I said before, I don't think selling it on will get any interest (being a little bit vague here deliberately as I don't really want to say something that could potentially identify the seller). It was up for £20 for a very long time, the minute I started asking questions about the item to try to check it was what I wanted, it suddenly went up to £40. I don't think anyone else is going to spend £40 on it, or even £20.

    Surely you must have thought it was worth £40 when you placed your maximum bid at more than £40?

    If you did, there must be others who will too...
    ====
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