Council Tax Liability after Probate
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It's possible the waters got muddied when you stayed in the house for a short time, whoever said that would be fine may not have been giving the best or most accurate advice. I hope you know who you spoke to, definitely pays for everything done by 'phone to know who, date, time, it can add weight to the words "I was told".
I'd probably ask why they haven't implemented the class F exemption as opposed to why they are refusing it. If they still insist you must pay, personally I'd approach the councillor for the area your mother lived, use the surgery that they run if you or sister can get there, or email as I think it's best in person or writing.
Make the councillor obtain justification for the decision. If all else fails follow it through with a formal complaint - if only to inconvenience the department.
Our own LA couldn't have been more helpful or understanding, very kind letters sent to us. It was free (refund) until LoA obtained, then 6 months class F.
This time around there's been very little communication except to say a refund is owed & zero charge, but no condolences or requests to be told when probate is granted like last time. Same LA, different team/person dealing with it.Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.0 -
So finally received a response back from the council:-
'This exemption applies to any unoccupied property (furnished or unfurnished) where the only person who can be held liable for the council tax has died so liability falls to the executor/administrator. The exemption will end when someone else can be held liable or 6 months from the date probate is granted or administration of letters is complete.
From the date of probate the property is put in the name of the beneficiaries. This applies when there are no circumstances which prevent the beneficiaries using the property for their own use. They may have the property up for sale but this is because they have chosen to do so not because the property needs to be sold to settle any debts from the estate. This means we regard them as being liable in their own right.
If probate has been granted but the estate is still not settled then the executors should remain liable. For example, the estate could be insolvent then it would be unreasonable to hold the beneficiaries liable or the property could need to be sold to settle the estate overall so the executors should continue to be liable.
From the information we have received, we have made yourself liable from the date of probate and I hope the above information explains why. Should you require any further information, then feel free to contact me'
What do you think ? Worth an appeal to Valuation Tribunal ?0 -
So finally received a response back from the council:-
'This exemption applies to any unoccupied property (furnished or unfurnished) where the only person who can be held liable for the council tax has died so liability falls to the executor/administrator. The exemption will end when someone else can be held liable or 6 months from the date probate is granted or administration of letters is complete.
From the date of probate the property is put in the name of the beneficiaries. This applies when there are no circumstances which prevent the beneficiaries using the property for their own use. They may have the property up for sale but this is because they have chosen to do so not because the property needs to be sold to settle any debts from the estate. This means we regard them as being liable in their own right.
If probate has been granted but the estate is still not settled then the executors should remain liable. For example, the estate could be insolvent then it would be unreasonable to hold the beneficiaries liable or the property could need to be sold to settle the estate overall so the executors should continue to be liable.
From the information we have received, we have made yourself liable from the date of probate and I hope the above information explains why. Should you require any further information, then feel free to contact me'
What do you think ? Worth an appeal to Valuation Tribunal ?
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That does not make a lot of sense. They say you get 6 mths from probate but then go on to say no you don't because its the executor or the beneficiaries who are liable ie there are no circumstances in which you would get 6 mths.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]They are wrong about the beneficiaries being able to use the property for their own use, that does not occur unless the property is formally transferred to them.[/FONT]0 -
Goodness - I am in the same boat, probate through a couple of weeks ago, off to see estate agents and get the house ready for sale next week. I assumed that I would have had 6 months before paying CT. But reading this sounds like I won't.
I don't feel that "This applies when there are no circumstances which prevent the beneficiaries using the property for their own use" is particularly fair - house is wrong end of the country for me, have a perfectly good house near where I work and wouldn't have chosen to have second house. Hope sale goes through quickly.
Edit: just reading the bit about the property being transferred - I am not transferring the names on the property. Many people will be selling i to divide the proceeds and never all owing the property0 -
That particular phrase is not found in legislation and so is a subjective determination by the council. To be fair to the council the actual legislation is very poorly worded. There is no delegated powers to alter the Class F exemption on a local level."This applies when there are no circumstances which prevent the beneficiaries using the property for their own use"
I've looked through a good few cases on the Class F and everyone comes up with a slightly different determination. As yet I've not had to construct a full tribunal argument based on it for anyone so I can't speak for using a particular argument.
A lot of confusion comes from what happens at probate - which is effectively just legal permission to distribute and finalise the estate - but for council tax purposes we could do with a high court case specifically on the council tax side. Most argument come over joint ownership rather than inheritance and ownership that way.
Unless and until there is something which transfer ownership of the property, for council tax purposes, the estate is liable by way executor for whatever charge would fall due. The catch is the potential for 'beneficial ownership' even where the estate has not been dealt with - for example read the decision on this case - http://info.valuation-tribunals.gov.uk/decision_document.asp?appeal=/decision_documents/documents/CT_England/1540M208374037C.htm&Decision=liability
and
http://info.valuation-tribunals.gov.uk/decision_document.asp?appeal=/decision_documents/documents/CT_England/4705M171273254C.htm&Decision=liabilityI no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.0 -
Flugelhorn wrote: »Goodness - I am in the same boat, probate through a couple of weeks ago, off to see estate agents and get the house ready for sale next week. I assumed that I would have had 6 months before paying CT. But reading this sounds like I won't.
I don't feel that "This applies when there are no circumstances which prevent the beneficiaries using the property for their own use" is particularly fair - house is wrong end of the country for me, have a perfectly good house near where I work and wouldn't have chosen to have second house. Hope sale goes through quickly.
Edit: just reading the bit about the property being transferred - I am not transferring the names on the property. Many people will be selling i to divide the proceeds and never all owing the property
I wouldn't panic Flugelhorn. We put FiL's house (local to us & 3 of the 4 other beneficiaries) on the market 'subject to probate', buyers found, the house remains in FiL's name. No council tax charged from DoD.
Told the council probate grant dated 26 March & I expected the Class F exemption to commence. It has, no problem, no argument, no questions asked. Exactly like 26 months ago when we did this before.
There is a difference in OP's case, she lived in the property while her mum was in a hospice & for 1 week after she'd died (don't know how long in total). It doesn't take much for a local authority to try to weasel out of giving anyone something for nothing!
Personally I'd appeal, nothing ventured & all that. Good luck OP.Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.0 -
The occupation of the property after death doesn't in itself always affect the situation - up to a period of 6 weeks occupation can occur without breaking the Class F (the aim is allow family to use the property whilst clearing it etc, "[FONT="]in considering whether a dwelling has been unoccupied for any period, any one period, not exceeding six weeks, during which it was occupied shall be disregarded[/FONT]"). If the period came to more than 6 weeks the Class F would stop but there would be nothing to stop the Class F resuming once they had left, assuming the relevant criteria were met (unlike some exemptions which cannot be resumed)I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.0
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CiS - would the occupation beforehand make any difference? OP said she stayed in the home while mum was in the hospice (but hasn't said for how long).Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.0
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SevenOfNine wrote: »CiS - would the occupation beforehand make any difference? OP said she stayed in the home while mum was in the hospice (but hasn't said for how long).
The order for the Class F exemption provide only for after death, where they allow the property to be occupied for up to 6 weeks. There's nothing to say that this can't also be a person who was living in the property prior to the death.
For CTax purposes 'occupied' means a property in which someone lives - 'lives' is usually taken at it's most basic sense. In CTax legislation 'resident' would be a person who has their 'sole or main residence' in the building but that also would fall under 'occupied' for this purpose - the legislation intentionally lowers the threshold from a 'resident' to an 'occupier' to widen the scope.I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.0 -
Thanks for all your replies.
I spoke to our solicitor and she said the council are being 'sneaky', different councils take different views on this.
We could appeal via the valuation tribunal and she said it would be interesting to hear the outcome but she said she thought we would loose and I think reading the second case CIS provided a link to, which is similar (three main beneficiaries rather than two) then she is probably right.
She also said if she had been the executor rather than me and my sister, then we wouldn't have had to pay the tax although her costs to perform the donkey work rather than just applying for probate would have been far higher than the council tax due.
Also if there wasn't any cash in the estate to pay the small requests to two other beneficiaries, friends of my mum we wouldn't have to pay the tax as the estate would be in debt until the property was sold.
Putting the property on the market asap after death has minimised the tax due so happy about that.
Regards1
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