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P4 Parking Residential

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  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,648 Forumite
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    Would anyone recommend I include my own pictures of the signage at night and from the view entering the area from the drivers seat?
    Yes. Use any and every picture that will help your case.
  • kit27
    kit27 Posts: 13 Forumite
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    KeithP wrote: »
    Yes. Use any and every picture that will help your case.

    Sorry to repeat myself, but I just wanted to clarify as I feel the pictures will actually hurt my case if it goes against my point of the signs being illegible/unclear. Should I omit them in this case?
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,648 Forumite
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    Of course.

    But can't you get pictures at night that help your case?
  • kit27
    kit27 Posts: 13 Forumite
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    KeithP wrote: »
    Of course.

    But can't you get pictures at night that help your case?

    If according to the points set out in my appeal, it adheres to these grounds as the sign is at an adequate height, illuminated correctly etc.

    The parking company also has a picture of the car parked directly outside the sign - drivers side too which can prove that the driver could adequately read the signage.

    I did see another user successful appeal on two basic but effective points surrounding the NTK - 1) no NTK issued 2) driver not keeper liable - liability has not been transferred. Would you recommend I use the same simple two arguments as I am not confident on the point surrounding the signage.

    Thank you again for your help so far!
  • kit27
    kit27 Posts: 13 Forumite
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    Hi,

    Could somebody read and check through my POPLA appeal before I submit?

    Thanks!

    Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

    I am the registered keeper of vehicle XXXX and am appealing a parking charge from P4 Parking. An appeal to the operator was submitted but subsequently rejected by a letter dated 24/07/18. Therefore, I am now elevating this appeal to POPLA on the following grounds:

    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 !!!8211; no keeper liability.
    2. No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers

    1. The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 !!!8211; no keeper liability.
    To date I have not been issued a Notice to Keeper (NTK) by P4 Parking. As a notice to driver was provided on the vehicle, an NTK is required to be issued no sooner than 28 days after, or no later than 56 days after the service of that notice. This stipulation is laid out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).

    The alleged infringement occurred on 31/05/18 and from my understanding the NTK was required to reach me by 26/07/18. As none of the mandatory information set out by Schedule 4 paragraphs 8 and 9 of the PoFA has been made available to me as Registered Keeper the conditions set out by paragraph 6 of Schedule 4 has not been complied with. Therefore, there can be no keeper liability.

    The keeper liability requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 must be complied with, where the appellant is the registered keeper, as in this case. One of these requirements is the issue of a NTK compliant with certain provisions. This operator failed to serve any NTK at all. As there has been no admission as to who may have parked the car and no evidence of this person has been produced by the operator, it has been held by POPLA multiple times in 2015 that a parking charge with no NTK cannot be enforced against the registered keeper.

    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. As there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    'There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no 'reasonable presumption' in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.'

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


    3. No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers
    I believe that this Operator has no proprietary interest in the land, so they have no standing to make contracts with drivers in their own right, nor to pursue charges for breach in their own name. In the absence of such title, P4 Parking must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at court level. A commercial site agent for the true landholder has no automatic standing nor authority in their own right which would meet the strict requirements of section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice. I therefore put P4 Parking to strict proof to provide POPLA and myself with an un-redacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract between P4 Parking and the landowner, not just another agent or retailer or other non-landholder, because it will still not be clear that the landowner has authorized the necessary rights to P4 Parking.

    The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.

    It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any areas where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land. Section 7.1 states:

    !!!8220;If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent). The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges!!!8221;.

    Section 7.3 states: !!!8220;The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I do not believe that this operator's mere site agreement as a contractor issuing PCNs and letters 'on behalf of' a landowner gives the parking firm any rights to sue in their own name. This is insufficient to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and not enough to hold me liable in law to pay P4 Parking. P4 Parking have no standing to enforce 'parking charges' or penalties of any description in any court.

    I put P4 Parking to strict proof of compliance with all of the above requirements.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    Should be fine; if you got no NTK (or a late one after day 56) you will win!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • kit27
    kit27 Posts: 13 Forumite
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    How is it that people are submitting very long POPLA appeals when the website only allows 2000 characters? Is the summary of the argument submitted in text box and the full appeal submitted in PDF as supporting evidence?
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,648 Forumite
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    kit27 wrote: »
    How is it that people are submitting very long POPLA appeals when the website only allows 2000 characters? Is the summary of the argument submitted in text box and the full appeal submitted in PDF as supporting evidence?
    They are following the guidance offered in post #3 in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread where it says:
    These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    edited 17 August 2018 at 9:19PM
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    Bit fed up with replying to people who haven't read the sticky thread today, or could have searched the forum for '2000 characters' or other keywords they were wondering about, and had their answer in seconds.

    We have literally directed 20 or more people to read the sticky thread, tonight alone.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • kit27
    kit27 Posts: 13 Forumite
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    Hi, sorry I'm quite new to using the forum and I did search but it was the entire forum not newbies (my mistake) and it didn't seem to come up. It was missed by me as it was underneath the examples of POPLA appeals but I just assumed any mention of this would have come before.

    Just wanted to point this out as feedback to maybe prevent other newbies like myself from asking!
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