How would you stop cowboy builders before they cause problems?
Options
Comments
-
I am only aware of 2 compulsory ombudsman schemes, Estate Agents and Chartered Surveyors.
We never see any threads on here about dodgy estate agents or surveyors do we? Oh no wait....
Just because you are not aware of the occupations that are regulated doesn't mean others don't understand this. You are assuming your ignorance is shared by everyone else. Regulation can take many forms, it does not have in to be an ombudsman scheme.
The ombudsman scheme for estate agents in my opinion has had a fair amount of success. They are required to give you a written contract, and the wording they should use for different scenarios is laid out in detail. My experience was generally good when I was moving.
You seem to have a simplistic thought process where a scheme is either perfect or it should not be there. Maybe there are some EAs and surveyors who are less than perfect, but at least there are mechanisms in place for getting issues addressed, and ultimately people in both of these occupations could be prevented from trading if they do something that is deemed to be bad enough. I think this is a good idea.0 -
Don't attempt to patronise me, you won't be successful.
I would never enter into an agreement without a written contract, unlike many cowboys who prefer to avoid contracts if they can. Even with a written contract, the cowboy builder can, and does, run off when things go wrong. What is wrong with making it compulsory for builders to use a written contract?
I can see that you are very much on the side of the cowboy builder. I am much more interested in the views of consumers who would like to improve things, rather than people who want to maintain the status quo.
At present it is compulsory for traders, if a contract is agreed off-premises, to issue a cooling off notice. I have had many different trades in since I moved here a couple of years ago, and not one of them has complied with their legal obligation to give me a cooling off notice.
I see, so did you use a performance bond in your contract which protects the employer against a contractor going bust? Did you have agreed payment dates where completed works were valued on site before a payment notice was issued? Did you include a retention sum which covers for a builder not coming back to site?
I'm not on any side here, but I do understand what contracts are widely used to prevent the things you want to stop and which clauses/ contractual mechanisms are there to protect the employer, whilst you might see telling you these things already exist and are widely used/readily available as patronising, hopefully it will act as a guide for those who know they are inexperienced in this area to get proper professional advice before undertaking construction works.
I spend days of my life advising clients of the values of these contracts but for a lot them the formalities and costs are off putting, even if usually ends up costing a lot more in the long run...another one of your threads which turns into Ill judged conclusions when the facts laid out don't suit your opinions
0 -
Why is this the consumer's fault? Perhaps they are vulnerable? We live in a civilised society, and we don't regulate the consumer, we regulate the people who are selling their goods and services.
If you think it should be the other way around, you should be campaigning to remove regulation of doctors, dentists, people producing and serving food, electricians and all the other occupations that are regulated. I bet you have never done this.
Not vulnerable at all. A couple who are healthy, affluent, nice house, new BMW and Mini on the drive - you will get the idea. They are typical modern consumers. They could not care less about issues such as cowboy builders.
My verdict? I have neighbours each side of me, and others around me, all actively aiding and abetting cowboy contractors.
To add further weight to my approach since posting my next door neighbours, who are almost identical, have met another rogue character to clear their ivy from the rear of their house. These neighbours are known for wanting everything cheap, everything paid cash, but getting into a dispute with "contractors" on a regular basis.0 -
the_r_sole wrote: »You mean just the same as a retention in a contract where a percentage of the total value is witheld until a specific time after completion - building contracts are already there to perform the functions you want
No, I don't mean a retention. I am fully aware of what a retention is, and if I had meant to say this I would have used the word retention.0 -
the_r_sole wrote: »My evidence is working for many years advising clients to use contracts for works that I have designed on every job, no matter how small but the majority not doing it.
Once you get to somewhere approaching 100k or work people tend to want a contract and sometimes even employ the architect as a contact administrator, but even then you have some clients who don't understand the complexity of actually delivering buildings - we've just had one client who after a year and half planning battle for a 4million quid building, doesn't want to employ us to oversee the building works because he's built a house extension before so how hard can it be?!
I know you only like dealing with published facts and not real first hand experience or practical solutions to issues in the construction industry, but I can only give the direct experience I have in dealing with small scale residential projects during all of my professional career - which although is regulated and costly for me every year in memberships, registration, insurance etc is still overrun by unqualified, uninsured plan drawers who are not regulated but regularly recommend on this (and many other forums) as a cost saving, I've lost count of the number of times where I've read "you don't need some fancy architect for this building project"...
The issue I'm struggling to understand is, if you consider yourself to be one of the reputable people in the industry, why you don't want to stamp out the cowboys who give you all a bad reputation.0 -
The issue I'm struggling to understand is, if you consider yourself to be one of the reputable people in the industry, why you don't want to stamp out the cowboys who give you all a bad reputation.
I'm a chartered architect and deal with construction contracts and contractors every day of my life, I know exactly how to avoid cowboys and advise my clients on how to do it.
It's clear you don't understand the contractual mechanisms that exist to offer the protection you claim isn't there.
If you could perhaps elaborate on your understanding of how the retention in a standard jct contract doesn't perform the function you were referring to, I'll be happy to clarify for you.0 -
the_r_sole wrote: »I'm a chartered architect and deal with construction contracts and contractors every day of my life, I know exactly how to avoid cowboys and advise my clients on how to do it.
It's clear you don't understand the contractual mechanisms that exist to offer the protection you claim isn't there.
If you could perhaps elaborate on your understanding of how the retention in a standard jct contract doesn't perform the function you were referring to, I'll be happy to clarify for you.
I'm certainly struggling with how the concept of a consumer paying a large deposit into a scheme is better for a client than keeping the retention money themselves. From my perspective, it would be nicer to have it in a scheme where I know there's a chance we'll be paid it and it won't be spent by the client on furniture when their budget runs out!
The question was what could be done to stop cowboy builders before they cause problems. Fact is, there are plenty of ways in which total cowboys can be very easily weeded out.
What must be separated is cowboys and disputes. Consumers go straight for 'cowboy' in every circumstance. Disputes are harder to avoid than cowboys and that's possibly where regulation might deliberately professionalise things more but builders often aren't very academic people
and so we'll possibly end up with even more of a shortage of labour than we currently do. Resolving a dispute also costs a lot of money. It is not free and cannot be. It needs a third party involved, you cannot simply protect consumers with a refund when they get a bit upset or things cost more than hoped for - they'd all want a refund! Building work is !!!!!! and really stressful. Heck, I don't enjoy having people in doing work and these people are my friends!
As long as people are prepared to pay for the extra administration then there's no problem. I'm sure that companies will pop up to fill the adminsitrative gaps to help trades if there were compulsory routes to take, but as every construction related person on this thread says - the processes, procedures, contracts and professionals are already available but many, many people are not prepared to pay for it because people think that project managing is easy. TV has a lot to do with it!Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
0 -
I for one and no doubt the others here would gladly see all cowboys and rogue traders eradicated overnight.
The trouble is there have been countless government initiatives, OFT and trading standards campaigns and they all end in failure. It seems to be a basic human instinct to try and get something a bit cheaper or preferably free. That's why people go to dodgy foreign clinics for cosmetic surgery or get embroiled in internet scams with Nigerian oil tycoons etc etc.
Although you take it as being patronising what we are trying to get across to the wider general public is there are procedures and advice and if all else fails lots of professional help (some of it given freely here) to help people avoid the cowboys and get good honest reliable qualified tradesmen and women. And with the correct procedures in place and good management even if a building project does go slightly off the rails there is absolutely no reason why the customer should be out of pocket. And also just as importantly protect the building contractor from cowboy customers.0 -
the_r_sole wrote: »Mandatory basic contracts for all works, that protect the employer and the contractor. Problem is most people see formal contracts over the top for small works then wonder why the builder who's been paid a huge amount up front disappears.
We haven't needed a builder for years but did have the following experience. We had a bungalow with a sloping drive which was in poor condition. We decided to get it block paved. We were new to the area and didn't know anyone who had work done. We got some quotes and went with the one we chose for the following reason. After giving us the quote he said he wouldn't need any money upfront, he would do the work and he only wanted paying when it was complete and we were happy;). We did this and he made a superb job of it and built us a lovely wall as well. I don't know if this an unusual way of doing business but it worked for us.0 -
The trouble is there have been countless government initiatives, OFT and trading standards campaigns and they all end in failure. It seems to be a basic human instinct to try and get something a bit cheaper or preferably free. That's why people go to dodgy foreign clinics for cosmetic surgery or get embroiled in internet scams with Nigerian oil tycoons etc etc.
In my case I got a few quotes and was considering going for the middle one. I spoke to my architect and he recommended the middle builder., said his work was good. And yes, of course I asked him for references and went to see a previous job he had done locally.
It was a very small, simple project and the architect felt it did not need professional supervision. The builder started work, and all seemed well.
BC came for their first visit and all was well. The builder told me they did not want to come back until the roof was on, so he would take progress photographs. I later discovered this was a lie.
The builder did some internal knock-through work while I was away (on a trip I had booked the year before). He made a complete botch of this and did not follow the instruction on the drawing and in our contract to make some inspection holes to check for a lintel before knocking through.
He contacted me demanding more money, and did not seem at all interested in the safety aspects of what he had done, or that he had breached the contract.
I called BC out to inspect on the day I returned home an they condemned all his work. He then ran away, making all sorts of excuses, blaming me, blaming the architect for drawings that did not make any sense, and blaming the inspector for being an idiot. And yes, there was a clause in the contract stating that if any of the work did not meet building regs the builder would be responsible for putting it right (but consumer legislation gives consumers this right anyway).
A I was going to be away, he demanded payment in advance and said he would not do any more work if I did not pay.
I was then left with a mess to sort out.
How exactly was this my fault?
He had lied about his building experience, he lied when he said BC did not want to come back and inspect until the roof was on, and he lied about just everything else. I later discovered he had done the same thing to at least one other customer.
If there was a licensing system, he would not be able to do this to more than one family as his licence would be removed the first time he did this. Also, some easier way to get my money back would have helped rather than going through the civil courts, which is a very lengthy system.
People like him make everyone in the construction industry look bad, whether you realise it or not.
If people choose to get services abroad, that's a completely different matter. In Britain we regulate most things, but let anyone set themselves up as a builder with no barriers no entry and no meaningful regulation.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
- 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 449.7K Spending & Discounts
- 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
- 608.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 173.1K Life & Family
- 247.9K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards