Wish St in Rye PCN - Postal NTK - POPLA appeal

craigwallis · 9 August 2017 at 12:04PM

Hi Guys I need your help please. I received a PCN from Wish Street car park in Rye. NTK came through in the post. Its run by Euro Car Parks who are a member of the BPA. Its an ANPR car park. Not sure how I can attach a pic to this thread so please let me know and I can show both letters I have received (anonymised my details of course). Also happy to email over copies of the letters if you'd like to take a look.

What happened was we parked up, took a few mins to get the buggy out the boot etc as had a baby with us, then bought a 1 hour ticket as we left the car park. We were back in the car to leave on time before that hour was then up. Our total duration in the car park was 1hr 16mins but we bought a ticket to cover the time from when we left the car unattended!

I initially appealed on the Euro Car Parks website using the most recent PCN/BPA/postal NTK template from the MSE newbies thread. This has been rejected and they have sent me another letter with a POPLA code.

I wanted advice on which template or information I should use to populate my case for my POPLA appeal on their website. I want to make sure that I don't mess up the next step in this process in case it then goes further. I'm happy to take them all the way to court if necessary.

This is the first ever PCN i've had so i'm very new at this. Appreciate any advice you can give at this stage!

Umkomaas · 9 August 2017 at 12:50PM

we bought a ticket to cover the time from when we left the car unattended!

On slightly thin ice there. When it comes to POPLA you'll need to 'dress' that a little differently to avoid them finding against you on that point. You will need to work on the basis of Grace Periods, both before making the decision to park and after parking to leave the car park.

But your starting point for the 'meat' of your appeal is the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3, where you will find some lengthy appeal point templates for you to copy and paste.

We don't need to see your letter (we've seen too many of them!), but can you tell us the date of the parking incident, the date on the letter, and when you received it. Also, what the letter says about 'Keeper liability', 'The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA)' and if it has a paragraph which includes the words 'If after 29 days ........'

HTH

System · 9 August 2017 at 1:10PM

The contract with ECP starts when you buy the ticket and ends 10 mins after the exit.

What are those times. Ignore the stuff about time on site.

craigwallis · 9 August 2017 at 1:23PM

Hi, thanks for your prompt response.

Parking incident date - 16/06/2017
'Date Issued' on initial PCN letter - 27/06/2017 (received in post very shortly after this date)

PoFa wording on letter: You are notified under the paragraph 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the driver's name or current postal address, if you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them.

If after 29 days wording on letter: You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you. This Notice is given to you under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of the Act.

In terms of 'Keeper Liability' I cannot find any wording that directly mentions that. However they have a sentence that states: " Should you provide an incorrect address for service or identify someone who denied they were the driver, we may pursue you for any parking Charge amount that remains unpaid".

Let me know your thought on this then I will find a suitable appeal template from NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3. I'll use this as the basis of my appeal and like you said will also add some wording around grace periods.

Many Thanks.

craigwallis · 9 August 2017 at 1:24PM

To IamEmanresu:

Entry to site on ANPR 16/06/2017 13:55
Exit of site on ANPR 16/06/2017 15:11

According to their electronic ticket terminal we bought a ticket at 16/06/2017 13:59 for 1 hour

Umkomaas · 9 August 2017 at 1:30PM

They seemed to have tightened up their NtKs PoFA compliance - it's taken them almost 5 years! You might want to pedantically check the whole NtK against this link to see if there is any glaring omission/fail in it.

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

(Please note: We are not promoting anything else on that website link, only advising you to use it to check your NtK).

But I suspect it will now be pretty sound. It's only one issue that you could have won easily on at POPLA - but there are other equally potent appeal points to make.

System · 9 August 2017 at 1:34PM

So it's 12 minutes and not 16 but it is still a technical breach. Wouldn't bother with POPLA but appeal to ECP on the basis of "de-minimis".

It's not as if you knowingly abusing their site in a material way.

You'll get letters but nothing else.

The fish and chip shop has gone downhill since they stopped the free parking there.

craigwallis · 9 August 2017 at 2:07PM

Umkomaas - having read through the parking cowboys link that you posted, it looks like there are no glaring omissions or fails. being Euro Car parks i'm assuming they've done some work at their end to now try and tidy up any loopholes perhaps.

Umkomaas · 9 August 2017 at 2:21PM

craigwallis wrote: »

Umkomaas - having read through the parking cowboys link that you posted, it looks like there are no glaring omissions or fails. being Euro Car parks i'm assuming they've done some work at their end to now try and tidy up any loopholes perhaps.

One or two PPCs have only recently worked out how to read the relevant part of the Act and how to join the dots to arrive at compliant NtKs.

As I said it's all but 5 years since its enactment. The forums were all over this rapidly and worked out what it all meant. PPCs were losing hand over fist at POPLA on PoFA compliance, but their Neanderthal approach to anything without pictures in it meant they continued to ship losses - with seemingly no clue why. Duh. :doh:

craigwallis · 15 August 2017 at 2:24PM

Hi all, thanks for your comments so far.

Im slightly confused as to what I need to do next to be honest. Do I appeal to ECP as suggested by IamEmanresu on the basis of "de-minimis" or should I use one of the standardised POPLA templates on the newbies forum but add an additional section on 'grace periods'? Umkomaas has been very helpful so far so would appreciate your thoughts?

Coupon-mad · 15 August 2017 at 10:35PM

I would do POPLA, because we rarely see them lost and even if it is, so what? It's only ECP.

Read other grace periods POPLA appeals people have written about ANPR car parks where the person has paid for their actual parking time, like you did. All the zillions of Tower Road Newquay threads are exactly like your case, we have shedloads of POPLA appeals won re this sort of case.

In the Tower Road Newquay ones, it's ParkingEye, not ECP, but the scam and car park is similar.

The POPLA appeals you will find when you search 'Tower Road Grace period POPLA' on this forum spell out what's needed and even go into detail about why it took just over 10 minutes to leave...in your case it's obvious what you put there. So adapt one of them, put Euro Car Parks instead of PE, and adapt the overstay time to make sense and explain why your family needed two mins extra, above the usual ten minutes minimum grace period, under the circs.

Wish St in Rye PCN - Postal NTK - POPLA appeal

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