How would you stop cowboy builders before they cause problems?
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Annie1960
Posts: 3,002 Forumite
Although most traders in the construction industry are genuine and do a good job, there are a significant number who do not, and cause untold misery to people.
Figures from 2011 indicate that the OFT receives approximately 100,000 complaints each year, and the FMB estimated that £1.5bn is lost to cowboy builders each year.
Most home owners who have been affected can take action through the civil courts, but wouldn't it be better if there was something in place to stop such people before they could ruin people's properties?
The Estate Agency industry used to have a terrible reputation, and, having moved house a couple of years ago, it seems to me that many Estate Agents are complying with the current rules, and providing a fairly decent service. They are obliged to belong to a regulator/ombudsman, and they can lose their ability to trade if they step too far beyond the rules.
Is it possible to come up with something similar for the construction industry?
If you ruled the world, and could make up whatever rules you wanted, what would you do to stop cowboy builders and associated trades? You can suggest anything you think would help. so long as it is not illegal.
To get the ball rolling, I would like to see all trades obliged to take credit card payments for work over a certain amount. This would need to be done without an intermediary such as Sage Pay, so that if, for example, Building Control failed to sign off the work and the builder walked away, the home owner would be able to get their money back from the credit card company.
What would you suggest?
Figures from 2011 indicate that the OFT receives approximately 100,000 complaints each year, and the FMB estimated that £1.5bn is lost to cowboy builders each year.
Most home owners who have been affected can take action through the civil courts, but wouldn't it be better if there was something in place to stop such people before they could ruin people's properties?
The Estate Agency industry used to have a terrible reputation, and, having moved house a couple of years ago, it seems to me that many Estate Agents are complying with the current rules, and providing a fairly decent service. They are obliged to belong to a regulator/ombudsman, and they can lose their ability to trade if they step too far beyond the rules.
Is it possible to come up with something similar for the construction industry?
If you ruled the world, and could make up whatever rules you wanted, what would you do to stop cowboy builders and associated trades? You can suggest anything you think would help. so long as it is not illegal.
To get the ball rolling, I would like to see all trades obliged to take credit card payments for work over a certain amount. This would need to be done without an intermediary such as Sage Pay, so that if, for example, Building Control failed to sign off the work and the builder walked away, the home owner would be able to get their money back from the credit card company.
What would you suggest?
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This is all futile. I recall 20 years ago the government playing to the media about cowboy builders. My memory is this was not the first time. A report was issued and nothing much changed. Licensed builders was said to be the way forward and this fizzled out. Ultimately Trustmark came around some years later.
The Government could change matters overnight but there is no political will to do so. NHBC, HBF and mortgage providers are too powerful and will not allow change. The professional bodies...? I suggest the jury is out there. RICS probably wants things as they are, ICWCI would like matters to change.
So one has to be pragmatic and here you and I disagree. Your title says it all. "Cowboy builders" with no mention of the conditions needed for them to operate in. This condition is for every cowboy builder there has to be an ample supply of cowboy consumers.
Consider the last couple of days. There have been posts from consumers who have no concept of the building industry, the trades or even fundamentals. Yet they willingly engage contractors (which may be the wrong contractors, and the wrong trades), then compound this with no working drawings, no Buildings Regulations, no Specification, no Contract, no payment scheme, no inspection ...the list goes on.
The government has tried, in a half hearted manner, to stamp out cowboy builders. This has failed but the Government has never dared to address cowboy clients.0 -
I'm a builder and will come at it from the other side.
I have been called into a number of homes where people have had work done to a poor standard and require us to rectify works. When you dig deeper into the issue, it is invariably because the home owner has gone for the lowest price. And when you manage to tease the price out of them, you realise that there is no way that the job they expected can be done for the price they paid.
I often get potential customers call me and say "thanks for your quote. But I have had a lower quote. Can you beat it?" The answer is always NO. If you want a cheap job, then you can pay for it. But do not ask for a professional job, guaranteed, appropriately certificated and fully insured for a lower figure. But people don't understand this and 8 out of 10 times will only make a decision based on price.
Additionally, customers do not do any due diligence. They often only have a mobile phone number for the builder and have no written address. They fail to ask for references and fail to check insurance details and appropriate certification (eg Gas Safe).
The here is the blinder: "we paid him cash and have no receipts"
Sorry, but home owners need to take responsibility for their stupid decisions.Eat vegetables and fear no creditors, rather than eat duck and hide.0 -
I'm a builder and will come at it from the other side.
I have been called into a number of homes where people have had work done to a poor standard and require us to rectify works. When you dig deeper into the issue, it is invariably because the home owner has gone for the lowest price. And when you manage to tease the price out of them, you realise that there is no way that the job they expected can be done for the price they paid.
I often get potential customers call me and say "thanks for your quote. But I have had a lower quote. Can you beat it?" The answer is always NO. If you want a cheap job, then you can pay for it. But do not ask for a professional job, guaranteed, appropriately certificated and fully insured for a lower figure. But people don't understand this and 8 out of 10 times will only make a decision based on price.
Additionally, customers do not do any due diligence. They often only have a mobile phone number for the builder and have no written address. They fail to ask for references and fail to check insurance details and appropriate certification (eg Gas Safe).
The here is the blinder: "we paid him cash and have no receipts"
Sorry, but home owners need to take responsibility for their stupid decisions.
How do you check references, do you visit previous jobs, do you view the nice portfolio the builder shows you? Also with a written address it could be a bogus one unless you visit it.
There are lots of local community forums now such as Next Door where people are recommending builders who have done a job for them.0 -
I'm a builder and will come at it from the other side.
I have been called into a number of homes where people have had work done to a poor standard and require us to rectify works. When you dig deeper into the issue, it is invariably because the home owner has gone for the lowest price. And when you manage to tease the price out of them, you realise that there is no way that the job they expected can be done for the price they paid.
I often get potential customers call me and say "thanks for your quote. But I have had a lower quote. Can you beat it?" The answer is always NO. If you want a cheap job, then you can pay for it. But do not ask for a professional job, guaranteed, appropriately certificated and fully insured for a lower figure. But people don't understand this and 8 out of 10 times will only make a decision based on price.
Additionally, customers do not do any due diligence. They often only have a mobile phone number for the builder and have no written address. They fail to ask for references and fail to check insurance details and appropriate certification (eg Gas Safe).
The here is the blinder: "we paid him cash and have no receipts"
Sorry, but home owners need to take responsibility for their stupid decisions.
Well said and my sentiments entirely. Taking today as a random example, I am being courted, and smooth talked, to go into a job which has gone horribly wrong and sort it out, The costs involved in putting it right are eye watering. The magnitude of the work is eye watering. Indeed these costs are far greater than what would have been paid to ensure a decent job in the first place. This is not unusual but consumers, in the vast majority of cases, have no interest in this.0 -
Jimmy_Neutron wrote: »How do you check references, do you visit previous jobs, do you view the nice portfolio the builder shows you? Also with a written address it could be a bogus one unless you visit it.
There are lots of local community forums now such as Next Door where people are recommending builders who have done a job for them.
All too often consumers judge a builder by "does he vacuum up when he finishes" and "he was a nice person". They do not scrutinise the quality of materials and workmanship. They then recommend the builder to somebody else using their ill informed criteria. They overlook the sub contracting which occurs. This makes local community forums a flawed concept.
It is bizarre that visiting previous jobs, quizzing previous clients and visiting business addresses seems to have been discarded. We all know why this is. Many clients cannot be bothered to do this because it requires a bit of nous and a bit of effort.0 -
I often get potential customers call me and say "thanks for your quote. But I have had a lower quote. Can you beat it?" The answer is always NO. If you want a cheap job, then you can pay for it. But do not ask for a professional job, guaranteed, appropriately certificated and fully insured for a lower figure.
I agree wholeheartedly. Our house was 4 years old when we bought it, and the roof was, to be honest, utter bovine excrement. Tiles fell off at the slightest hint of wind.
Several cowboy roofers later, we got a recommendation from a neighbour. The roofer told us he used to work for the company that built the houses in the first place. He stayed with them a few months, then left and set up his own business. His reasons ? Well, to paraphrase ... "The time they allot you to do each house, there's no way on earth you can do it properly. You have to cut corners big time. I'm ashamed to put my name to the roofs I've done for that company. That's why I left".
End result, he re-did our roof - and for a lot less than some other quotes we'd had. Not the cheapest, by a long margin - but not a rip-off, either. But he's done loads of other jobs locally, and we're pleased with the result. And he guarantees his work. And so far it's held up to several severe Scottish winters with no problems.
Yep, it's a difficult one. Cheapest ain't always best. But there are also some cowboys who will try to charge £300 for replacing a single tile on a bungalow ( like some *expletive deleted* tried to do with my grandma, till I "had a word with him" ). But, as always, you can't beat personal recommendations.0 -
All too often consumers judge a builder by "does he vacuum up when he finishes" and "he was a nice person". They do not scrutinise the quality of materials and workmanship. They then recommend the builder to somebody else using their ill informed criteria. They overlook the sub contracting which occurs. This makes local community forums a flawed concept.
It is bizarre that visiting previous jobs, quizzing previous clients and visiting business addresses seems to have been discarded. We all know why this is. Many clients cannot be bothered to do this because it requires a bit of nous and a bit of effort.
Perhaps the client might not be happy knocking on a strangers door and asking to see their extension, loft conversion, etc also it could be the builders friend or relatives house.
How does the average person know what is good quality materials and workmanship, I am sure most builders would be peed off if the client followed them around with a spirit level and scrutinised their work.0 -
Perhaps the client might not be happy knocking on a strangers door and asking to see their extension, loft conversion, etc also it could be the builders friend or relatives house.
How does the average person know what is good quality materials and workmanship, I am sure most builders would be peed off if the client followed them around with a spirit level and scrutinised their work.
I will take people to previous projects. I can't take clients for granted and have people knocking on doors. There are always ongoing projects too, you can see and be introduced to some of the people that would work on your house before they get there.
Going to look at something is a heck of a lot better than looking at nothing. You can judge materials and workmanship at those projects.
You have to go in with some level of trust. There is a world of difference between taking someone on word with no contract, no spec, no payment schedule and thinking that all builders are taking you round their mum's house
There are several things that can be checked individually that when supplied will add up to a legitimate business. Even just speaking to a few builders on the phone, I am sure that some will shine more than others as being helpful and knowledgeable. I've not yet met a client that knew more than I did about process.
On the other hand, I hate taking on clients I don't know and I will avoid it. There are way too many people out there ready to take a builder for a ride and I can't run any checks on them other than what my gut and previous, bitterly learned, experience says about the way that they talk. They may not know, but they're being interviewed.
I will never take a credit card payment and will never be forced to. The vast majority of the cost of a project goes straight into that person's house and neither they, nor a credit card company are qualified to put a value on it. One chargeback could bankrupt a family business overnight.Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
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Mandatory basic contracts for all works, that protect the employer and the contractor. Problem is most people see formal contracts over the top for small works then wonder why the builder who's been paid a huge amount up front disappears.0
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How about making it compulsory for all trades to be licensed (as gas engineers and electricians are at present)? A bad builder who uses the wrong lintel can kill you just as dead as a bad gas engineer or electrician.
What about making it compulsory for all trades to belong to a regulatory body with an arbitration function?0
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