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Virgin Defence: Have I ruined my chance?
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Coupon-mad wrote: »OK so why not find out from the Hotel when PE started there, and if it was mere weeks/a couple of months before the parking event, you can use as part of your evidence with your Witness Statement, the lack of additional signs alerting people to the change of rules. This is a condition of the BPA Code and Practice and something that it seems PE like to ignore (e.g. when they took over Asda sites from Smart parking, and changed various free parking times AFAIK, they didn't put up additional signs to draw the changes to the attention of people familiar with the old rules).
BPA CoP here:
http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf
Also read the Grace Periods section of the Code.
Thankyou for that information. It could only of been a maximum of 7 days as I am there every Monday at the same time to drop him off.
The car park is relatively small & if I have done this correctly here is the link to the photo they included &I I have white lined my route into my space & out, the first sign is on my left entering out of my view in my opinion as I was concentrating on my right turn into space & again in my space the sign was above eye level on the post to the left of me aimed at the disabled spaces with appropriate signage. So with no reason to think the rules had changed I was clearly not going to notice these pathetic attempts to clearly mark out a new parking scheme.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/80nvwyz1etppcay/AABU8rXUq1ZQ2s840QJMW84ia?dl=00 -
ParkingEye have invited you to supply evidence of your patronage, so to play the game and look reasonable, I would do that. Ask the village hall owners/person in charge, to confirm in writing that your son attends xxxxxxx club every week, and ask them also to confirm on what date the signs/regulations changed, and also ask them to confirm to their knowledge, how many patrons were caught out over the Summer, and finally ask them to state that they do not support this charge against your family/you, as regular patrons.
The village hall doesn't have to provide the above, but all of it would prove very useful to you as evidence. So lay it on thick about the distress of getting a court claim over this and how the signs were not clear and you need them to confirm a few things to support you as patrons/customers, against this unfair charge.
Have PE only included copies of sign type 1 and sign type 3?
The latter is for Blue Badge Holders only, therefore those terms do not relate to you and cannot have created a contract with you, when parking in that bay adjacent to those Blue Badge signs.
If they haven't shown a copy of the sign that's non-Blue Badge Holders, DO NOT tip PE off, keep that under your hat ready for the hearing.
If you are at Directions Questionnaire stage (i.e. you've got YOUR copy N180 from the court, not from PE), the way to fill that in is explained in the NEWBIES thread post #2 in a post by bargepole about what to do when. e.g. say NO to Mediation.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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No unfortunately they have included signage type two but I didn't upload the picture as you can see these signs were not in my view driving in or driving out.
I probably had to drive into the worst space that might actually save my bacon in the end hopefully.
Great advice, I will see if the village hall or club manager can pen me a witness statement to help my witness statement.
All this for 16 minutes, it's wicked, I knew double yellow lines outside was the way to go :rotfl:0 -
The rules change and BPA guidelines for this (see above), plus the fact you didn't leave car so would not have even seen a computer terminal or other signs inside the building, give you an argument. I'd personally run that argument were I in your shoes, but...
on a strict interpretation do be aware that you did park and the signs are there. So it's at least conceivable a DJ could go the other way.
I would add that even if PE were to win the case, unless they prove the small print is readable on the signs and that it entitles them to any more than £100, then that's all they're having. The Dropbox images (and hopefully their evidence pack) are illegible in that aspect.0 -
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It got took over by parking eye, dropping my son off to his club as normal, I drove in at 17.58 & left at 18.15 missing all the new parking signage. My son never entered our reg into what would normally be the book.
Did you put you were dropping your son off as normal in the actual defence?
Unloading/Loading and by similar definition "dropping off" are not considered 'parking' - Jopson v Homeguard
Points to expand are as covered by others:
New parking regime - no sign seen by driver on the relevant date as your son/you regularly attend - so genuine patron
driver dropping off passenger - interrupted by then needing to make a phone call
grace period
query the accuracy of the ANPR - calibration
No prompting made by staff for your son to input vehicle registration*
* it is a typical clause in contracts of this nature that PE are responsible for training staff at the locations0 -
No unfortunately they have included signage type two but I didn't upload the picture as you can see these signs were not in my view driving in or driving out.
I probably had to drive into the worst space that might actually save my bacon in the end hopefully.
Great advice, I will see if the village hall or club manager can pen me a witness statement to help my witness statement.
All this for 16 minutes, it's wicked, I knew double yellow lines outside was the way to go :rotfl:
Double yellows outside on street (as long as there are no yellow kerb blips indicating a loading ban in operation) are free when loading/unloading and dropping off passengers. Next time, avoid private car parks like the plague.
Certainly the 'Blue Badge Holders only' sign, does not relate to you, and because the car park is marked out as it is, they should have put some signs type 2 in view from where you parked. They didn't. AND because it was a new regime the BPA CoP says they should have allowed a period of grace, and/or added extra signs to communicate the change.It could only of been a maximum of 7 days as I am there every Monday at the same time to drop him off.
Failure to draw terms to attention, fails to create a contract at all.
You can argue at Witness Statement/evidence stage (or in a separate Skeleton Argument) that the signage contained new, unexpected and (as it turns out) onerous terms, not sufficiently drawn to the attention of the driver, as set out in the leading judgment of Denning MR in J Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] EWCA Civ 3.
With PE, you can also email them and point out they have no cause of action, failed to allow a sufficient Grace Period, and failed to place additional signs at that space (show them your line drawing). Also throw in that a car dropping off a passenger for the minutes that takes to ensure a child is safely delivered into adjacent premises, is not parked:
enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk
Expect to be fobbed off, more than once. But keep at them, reply EVERY time, telling them they have no cause of action and reiterating the arguments mentioned by me, Redx and Johnersh already.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Have a court date for May BUT if the claimant does not pay fees by xxx date it will be struck out.
Both defendant & claimant have to send in the documents they wish to rely upon in the final hearing by xxx time.
So I was wanting to ask, is this just the things like images, letter of proof from club manager etc
Do I save the defence argument for my witness statement that goes in at a later date?
Many thanks0 -
I am appalled that a village hall should appoint scammers named last week as such in the House of Commons. MPs could not be clearer, that PEs activities are tantamount to fraud.
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
Watch the above video and write to your MP and asking take the matter up with the Parish Council, and point the councillors to the video.
It is the will of Parliament that this dishonest company stops issuing these preposterous invoices, why are the PC financing them?You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
Have a court date for May BUT if the claimant does not pay fees by xxx date it will be struck out.
Both defendant & claimant have to send in the documents they wish to rely upon in the final hearing by xxx time.
So I was wanting to ask, is this just the things like images, letter of proof from club manager etc
Do I save the defence argument for my witness statement that goes in at a later date?
The documents you wish to rely on are:
- your witness statement (NOT a skeleton defence argument), see the NEWBIES thread for the difference
- any other witness statement (e.g. someone who was in the car too, or a WS from the club manager if he will add a letter with a statement of truth at the bottom, signed & dated as a formal WS)
- the letter from the club manager (not as good as a formal WS signed under a statement of truth)
- your DARK photos of signs, to show they were scarce, unlit & illegible in winter weather & darkness
- a copy of the Beavis case sign, to show what a clear one looks like (Parking Prankster website has posted the image before).
- a copy of the applicable BPA Code at the time, where it says new parking restrictions need extra signs to alert drivers familiar with the old arrangements
- a copy of Jopson v HomeGuard to show that dropping off is NOT parking, as held by a Senior Circuit Judge, the esteemed HHJ Charles Harris QC, who took time to actually define the meaning of parking.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Coupon-mad wrote: »The documents you wish to rely on are:
- your witness statement (NOT a skeleton defence argument), see the NEWBIES thread for the difference
Why am I being asked to send in my witness statement at a later date than the documents I need to rely on if I am to include my witness statement?0
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