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Defence for court action

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  • Undisputed3001
    Undisputed3001 Posts: 44 Forumite
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    I did read the newbies thread, but there is a lot to digest!

    The IPC says "Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site"

    So can I say something like:

    f. An inadequate grace period has been given as required by the IPC Code of Practice which states an "sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs" must be provided, which is clarfied by the BPA as 10 minutes to exit the car park and an unspecified period to study, accept the terms and make payment. The Claimaint is in breach of regulations.
  • nosferatu1001
    nosferatu1001 Posts: 12,961 Forumite
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    The BPA cannot clarify something for the IPC, and vice versa

    What you can state is that a well known grace period AFTEr parking is 10 minutes, as must be given by local authorties, and the BPA CoP mirrors this requirement. It is reaosnable therefore to conclude a similar period must be lalowed for her e- at least 10 minutes.
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
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    Actually, "sufficient time" may very well work in your favour rather than 10 minutes. Why? Because sometimes when there are no parking spaces available, you have to wait to park and in these cases, sufficient time should cover the waiting to find a space. Make that point.

    I am assuming that you did have some problems in getting a parking space and then reading the t&c.
  • Undisputed3001
    Undisputed3001 Posts: 44 Forumite
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    So I've had a night time visit there.
    No sign is directly under lighting, although there's plenty of advertising banners under the flood light.
    There's two signs next to the payment machine:

    The first one is just a general statement about ANPR being in use.
    The second one has tariffs and a short notice for what a PCN would cover, namely:
    • Failure to purchase and/or clearly display a valid ticket/permit
    • Failure to park wholly within an authorised marked bay
    • Exceed maximum weight and/or height restrictions
    • Over staying the time you had paid for
    • Failure to correctly enter your vehicle registration number (seriously??????)

    There is no mention of any grace period.

    On the other signs that you would have to be a giant to read, or have super vision, there is mention of 10 minutes grace. There is also a different poorly lit sign on one of the entry pillars that has the same info.

    There is no consistency in the signage.

    The reason for going over the 10 minutes - find parking and park (its not the most maneuverable of car parks), and then do the most British of things - politely queue!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
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    So I've had a night time visit there.
    Got photo evidence in readiness for your later Witness Statement?
    There is no mention of any grace period.
    No need for there to be. Make sure you quote only the IPC CoP on grace periods, as already pointed out. No mention of the BPA.
    What it doesn't cover is about the 12-13 mins from the point we entered the car park (looking for parking space, getting change etc).

    However, I'm unsure what the claim is about. They mention in vague terms about exceeding the grace period in which to purchase the ticket, but the incident time is identified much later.
    How much time BEFORE the ticket was purchased elapsed, and also, how much time AFTER?
    We've written to them once before, stating that we have a parking ticket, provided photo copies, and told them they are free to inspect the original at our premises. In hindsight, I should have sent this via recorded mail as we did not receive a response.
    No, you should NEVER send a letter expecting a PPC scum firm to sign for it...obvious why not. What you should have done is, obtained from the PO Counter, a free 'certificate of posting' an ordinary first class letter (and kept the PO certificate receipt), or done it online and kept screenshots. Both of those options are evidence of an appeal made (or deemed delivered).

    Was the PCN an ANPR one in the post? I wrote a defence recently that lends itself to being adapted to cover the DPA breach of running two data handling systems that conflict with each other, and breach the ICO Code of Practice on ANPR Surveillance Camera rules.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5838188

    HTH
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Undisputed3001
    Undisputed3001 Posts: 44 Forumite
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    Got photo evidence in readiness for your later Witness Statement?

    Yes, I have pictures of the site, signage, and the main notices next to the payment machine
    How much time BEFORE the ticket was purchased elapsed, and also, how much time AFTER?

    Thirteen minutes before, and just over 3 hours after
    Was the PCN an ANPR one in the post? I wrote a defence recently that lends itself to being adapted to cover the DPA breach of running two data handling systems that conflict with each other, and breach the ICO Code of Practice on ANPR Surveillance Camera rules.

    HTH

    Yes, the first correspondence was an ANPR one. I will have a read of the thread.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
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    and just over 3 hours after
    Say that again, I think you misunderstood. How much past ticket expiry? Minutes?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Undisputed3001
    Undisputed3001 Posts: 44 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    Say that again, I think you misunderstood. How much past ticket expiry? Minutes?

    Thirteen minutes before purchasing ticket.
    The ticket then covered us for the remainder of the stay, which was just over 3 hours. We didn't stay past ticket expiry.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,357 Forumite
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    Yes, I have pictures of the site, signage, and the main notices next to the payment machine
    Do you have photos taken in the dark (without flash) to show the difficulty in reading them at the time your vehicle was parked?
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,231 Forumite
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    Undisputed3001 wrote: »
    Which sections should I remove?

    Almost all of it.

    The key argument is buried at point 6 - the time was paid for, a ticket was obtained, and the driver complied, or substantially complied, with the terms and conditions.

    All that waffle about what a bunch of chancers Gladstones are, has no relevance to this case. Also, by starting off talking about contractual terms, landowner authority, POFA and keeper liability, CRA 2015 etc., it looks like a technical defence of the type seen often on here, and which will put many Judges' backs up.

    Always start with your strongest argument, if that's the first thing the Judge reads, you are in pole position and it's the other side who will have an uphill struggle.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
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