Advice for someone involved in a banking scam

Ihaveaquery · 20 June 2018 at 10:26AM

Advice please for a man in his late 70s who has been conned out of £60k. There was some sort of scan whereby he was called by someone claiming to be working for the fraud office. Long story short he was persuaded to send just under £20k on 4 successive days to a bank account as part of an 'investigation'. On the final day this was flagged by the bank it was being sent to and declined.

This type of spending was totally at odds with normal spending on the account. I feel the bank has some responsibility in terms of not flagging these internally. We are looking for advice on how to help him approach this and what to do next. He is not at all money savvy (obviously) and I would say he's a pretty vulnerable individual. The police were called by the bank and they have put him down as being someone who is highly vulnerable. Its with the fraud office but don't expect anything will come from that.

It has also come to light that it is the second time he has been conned out of a large amount of money. I think the last time was about 10 years ago. I guess we need to find out if the bank were aware of that the first time and if so if they should have put a flag on his account to list him as vulnerable.

I'm not sure whether its relevant but the timing is also really odd as his sister had just died the day before, he had power of attorney and made the payments were made from her account. Perhaps just a coincidence.

Please keep things constructive here. Yes I know the whole thing beggars belief but that's where we are and he is the victim here.

thanks all

Uxb · 20 June 2018 at 11:05AM

Well actually it seems any flag should have been put on his sisters account as that is the one from where the money was removed from and it is now the late sister's estate who are now the victims of the fraud rather than him.
This could be why it was not flagged up earlier in the process of the fraud as it was not his own account that was being affected - it was his sisters.
If he was a vulnerable person not saavy with money then one asks whether he was a suitable person to be holding a POA in the first place - though I should add know nothing about about how the appointment of POA's work.

Ihaveaquery · 20 June 2018 at 11:27AM

Thanks, yes, all a bit of a mess. The question is how to move it forward with the bank

EachPenny · 20 June 2018 at 12:11PM

Ihaveaquery wrote: »

Thanks, yes, all a bit of a mess. The question is how to move it forward with the bank

It sounds like you feel it is all the bank's fault.

I'd suggest waiting for the outcome of the investigation and the police enquiries before making any decisions.

I'd also suggest the priority should now be protecting this gentleman's own financial arrangements. Does he still have phone/internet access to his own account(s)?

scaredofdebt · 20 June 2018 at 1:47PM

When I used to work for a bank, some 10 years ago, it was standard practise to telephone customers to check payments over a certain threshold were genuine, I think the limit was £5k. Some banks take security more seriously than others however.

If the bank knows about this "vulnerability", you'd expect them to take a bit more care especially with such suspicious transactions, but you'd need to seek legal advice to take this further, if it's even possible.

EachPenny · 20 June 2018 at 2:26PM

Ihaveaquery wrote: »

I'm not sure whether its relevant but the timing is also really odd as his sister had just died the day before, he had power of attorney and made the payments were made from her account. Perhaps just a coincidence.

The other thing to consider is whether the Power of Attorney was still valid - they usually cease on the death of the person they relate to. At which point the bank should have been informed of their customer's death (with the account possibly being frozen) and that the PoA no longer had effect.

If the gentleman was still attempting to make sizeable transfers out of the sister's account on the fourth day after her death (day 5?), and the bank hadn't been informed, this might influence the way events are viewed.

As a potentially vulnerable person it sounds like he needs some advice on his legal position quite urgently. I would also suggest that advice should be independent from anyone involved in setting the PoA up.

bundoran · 20 June 2018 at 4:32PM

Eachpenny is correct: Powers of Attorney definitely end on death. The gentleman concerned no longer had the right to make transfers from his sister's accounts.

Ihaveaquery · 20 June 2018 at 4:34PM

Thanks all for your advice. I think he is the only person who could have informed the bank so i wonder if the blame would still be on him anyway for not letting them know? I imagine he is also executor of her will,

I think the bank do have some responsibility to flag unusual action on a bank account. That is obviously what the other bank did and they didn't have access to any of the history of the account the money was coming from and how unusual the transactions were.

EachPenny · 20 June 2018 at 4:46PM

Ihaveaquery wrote: »

I think the bank do have some responsibility to flag unusual action on a bank account. That is obviously what the other bank did and they didn't have access to any of the history of the account the money was coming from and how unusual the transactions were.

Banks also have to balance that with allowing people to access their money and spend/transfer it as they wish.

The forum regularly hears complaints from outraged people who have had transactions held up or blocked due to the bank having suspicions about the transaction.

How were the bank supposed to know that the gentleman's sister wasn't paying someone for building works, for example?

If the transaction involved a payment being made by card then I'd be surprised if it wasn't blocked, but if it is done via internet banking and all the correct security details have been entered then the bank should be able to reasonably assume that the transaction is one the account holder intended to make.

I would be really annoyed if transactions of £10k-£20k that I make from time to time got blocked, but I'd be equally annoyed if I lost £20 in a banking scam. So where in that range should the bank set the threshold for blocking my transactions?

Zanderman · 20 June 2018 at 4:59PM

It would seem, as others have said, that his previous problems may not be relevant. As that was on his own account - not on his sister's. So his sister's bank won't have known about it.

Unless it was a) the same bank and b) he was acting under fully declared PoA - ie. not just logging in as if he was his sister but under a PoA mandate the bank knew about. It would be worth checking both these points. If it wasn't the same bank, or he was not using PoA correctly then the previous vulnerability won't be relevant.

The issue of whether he even had legal access to the account - by whatever means - because the PoA would have ceased on his sister's death, is another complication. He may well have been acting illegally in doing anything with her accounts until the new situation was rationalised.

These issues do complicate the original point - that he was being scammed - as not only was he being scammed but he may also have been acting improperly himself, scam or not.

I'm not at all sure how you go about sorting this out but would echo what others have said and get legal advice of some sort as soon as you can.

And make sure he doesn't get scammed again - his phone number may be on a 'sucker's list' so maybe change that. Or get him a mobile and disconnect the landline. Or a different new mobile number if he already has one. And, longer term, perhaps arrange PoA for him and get whoever has PoA to do all his money management - i.e. take it out of his hands. That might seem drastic and may not be feasible, but it's worth some thought.

bundoran · 20 June 2018 at 6:04PM

Ihaveaquery wrote: »

I imagine he is also executor of her will,

If he is executor of her will then his authority to act in dealing with the sister's assets would arise when he was in receipt of a Grant of Probate. He couldn't have obtained that on the day after the sister had died, and even if he did have a Grant then he could only lawfully act under the power given to him by the Grant by telling the bank she had died and giving them the Grant, not by logging onto the account either as Attorney when the Power of Attorney had died with the sister, or by logging on by pretending to be the dead sister himself.

I'm afraid that the gentleman concerned is not in a good position to be complaining about the conduct of the bank.

Advice for someone involved in a banking scam

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