POPLA Appeal (ECP) - Submitted - awaiting response

MikeHammer · 1 December 2017 at 3:48PM

First time posting and in need of some brief advice before proceeding with an appeal.

I have read the stickies, I've read the FAQ's, I've read the BPA Code of Practice and I've reviewed paragraph 9 of POFA 2012 that relates to postal NTK's. I've also searched various things on this forum in order to better equip myself with the knowledge I may need, should I proceed with an appeal. Apologies in advance for not being able to link the images due to being a new member.

Put simply, the driver entered a ECP car park from a 30mph road at around 7.50pm on a dark night. On the occasion for which the PCN has been issued, the driver did not see signs upon entering the car park, nor did they see any larger signs adjacent to ticket machines. No signage was visible from where the driver parked the car, nor on the exit route used from the car park (a genuine, gravel path exit - not jumping a fence or anything!).

The times indicated on the PCN say the vehicle was in the car park for 10 minutes and 48 seconds. The PCN shows ANPR images of a numberplate (the car itself is not visible in the image, nor is anything identifiable as the car park itself).

The reason I'm asking for advice is because the driver did not purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay as they did not see the signage (the majority of what I've read when searching this forum are from people who have tickets but who've exceeded the time permitted).

Upon returning to the car park (without a camera so unable to post actual pics), there are small signs at the entrance that have a white "P" in a blue square and some other small text (apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example). This sign is at a height not convenient for a driver to see/read when turning into the car park from a 30mph road (where Government guidelines say the sign must be legible at a speed of 15mph). It is not illuminated, either by direct or indirect light. It appears to be reflective but is at a height far above that which would be lit by car headlights (also the angle of approach to the car park mean your headlights would not light up that sign even if it were at a lower level).

The main sign in the car park located next to a ticket machine (that is illuminated) is a big yellow/blue ECP standard looking sign (again, apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example), however the driver did not see it when parking on the occasion for which the PCN was issued. Having gone back to the car park and specifically looked, it *is* illuminated and it is directly opposite the vehicle entrance to the car park (probably 100 yards or so directly in front of the entrance), however the driver drove immediately right upon entering the car park so would not have been facing it at any point.

I have attempted to search for any related advice. I have found some very useful information (so thank you to everyone who commits time to helping others on here) but nothing that fits the combination of circumstances (not purchasing a ticket) *and* potential reason for appeal (signage).

I wanted to seek your views on whether it's worth me appealing, given the driver did not buy any ticket at all and given it probably looks like all the relevant info that needs to be on the signs is on the signs (they're just not prominent at all).

Thank you in advance.

Redx · 1 December 2017 at 4:01PM

"given the DRIVER did not buy any ticket at all"

always be careful in any "stories" that you write , so edit the above post

all appeals include poor and inadequate signage , inlcuding illumination and siting etc

generally speaking, it is thought that a driver has up to 10 minutes to comply or leave a private car park

read clause #13 of the BPA CoP dated october 2015 , that details those details that their members sign up to

government regulations dont apply on private car parks, but common sense does

use the blue text appeal, and add a paragraph stating that clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here

and also check how long the NTK took to arrive

MikeHammer · 1 December 2017 at 4:12PM

Hi Redx - thank you for the reply. OP edited - good spot.

The NTK arrived within the 14 days (just).

Thank you for your advice to include the Grace Period reference (sections 13.1 and 13.2 of the BCA CoP). I will definitely include this. I could not find any explicit reference to a period of time that's generally allowed for a driver to enter a car park, reject the contract and leave. I'd only read what's in section 13.4 about a suggested grace period of 10 minutes to leave.

claxtome · 1 December 2017 at 4:18PM

Assuming your case gets to POPLA Appeal my thread was for a similar case (6 mins not 10.5 mins) and was successful at POPLA appeal->
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5693229

Good luck

May have to mention the extra few seconds as "de minimis" ("The law does not concern itself with trifles").

MikeHammer · 1 December 2017 at 4:31PM

Thanks claxtome - just read through your thread and can pick up some important tips from the advice given to you. Glad you won your appeal

MikeHammer · 4 December 2017 at 9:25AM

RedX - can I just pick up on something you said please?

"government regulations dont apply on private car parks, but common sense does"

Is this definitely the case? The reason I ask is reading the BPA CoP, section 18.4 states:

If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes:
specifying the sum payable for unauthorised parking

adequately bringing the charges to the attention of drivers, and

following any applicable government signage regulations.

The final bullet point is why I'm querying what you said.

nosferatu1001 · 4 December 2017 at 11:09AM

Yes, but there are none that apply to the actual format of the sign - there are Advertising Consent concerns if the signs are larger than a specific size, however there are NO regulations on the size, shape, content etc. It is also based on contract law.

MikeHammer · 4 December 2017 at 12:02PM

As keeper, I'm about to submit the blue text from the Newbie thread to Euro Car Parks. There's a paragraph under the blue text that talks about supporting evidence. I wondered if it's generally worth including pictures of what the keeper considers inadequate signage in the car park or whether this will serve to give ECP advanced warning of what would be submitted at the POPLA stage and, therefore, a longer period of time for them to prepare their rebuttal of this evidence?

The images would be of badly lit signs, no signage visible from where the vehicle was parked. I'm thinking of submitting them and referring to section 18.3 of the BCA CoP:

You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle.

Thank you

Fruitcake · 4 December 2017 at 12:29PM

Save your ammo for PoPLA. Just send the BPA template in blue exactly as it appears in the NEWBIES and await the inevitable rejection.
Inadequate signage will be one of several PoPLA appeal points, templates of which are available in the NEWBES.

Umkomaas · 4 December 2017 at 12:29PM

I wondered if it's generally worth including pictures of what the keeper considers inadequate signage in the car park or whether this will serve to give ECP advanced warning of what would be submitted at the POPLA stage and, therefore, a longer period of time for them to prepare their rebuttal of this evidence?

We normally suggest the attachment of copies of receipts for shopping, or meals, or accommodation to prove that the motorist was a genuine customer if the car park was servicing one of these types of establishment.

You’re spot on about keeping your powder dry for POPLA, so I would advise you not to submit any signage photographs at this stage. Even if the signage is pants - and the PPC agrees with that - they wouldn’t cancel, they’d try to ride their luck in attempting to extort you out of £100. You’re involved in a murky business!

Umkomaas · 4 December 2017 at 12:48PM

Is this case linked to your other thread? If so, please get the two merged by sending a PM to either Crabman or soolin (Board Guides) - links at the bottom r/h of the forum thread list, one page back from this one.

Forum etiquette - one case, one thread and definitely do not open a new thread for any random question you might have. Everything in one place, please. Thanks.

POPLA Appeal (ECP) - Submitted - awaiting response

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