Boosting energy efficiency status of buildings to combat climate change - what does it take?
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frozen_wastes wrote: »It's been on my watch list since 2014. There certainly wasn't a 7 year payback back then (this was after the 41p/kwh feedin tariff), but it was the culling of the feedin tarrif from 13ish p/kwh all the way down to 4p/kwh that destroyed by plans in 2016. Equipment prices had been steadily falling, but when the tariff fell off a cliff like that, it was a very clear message that the government doesn't want solar to succeed at all.
We are where we are now. Still the vast majority of rooftops in both residential and business premises don't have solar panels. In spite of that, solar is providing 25% of overall electricity demand on a sunny mid summer noon so the potential for solar to expand remains huge. I would argue that it doesn't need support anymore, certainly not in the south of england. But barriers to installation such as VAT and targeted charging proposals need to be eliminated.
No technology success depends on the wants of half a dozen people in the cabinet in London
Solar is not economic because of its feast and famine output
You need a battery to fix that issue which as you conclude you dont want to buy but instead want to use the grid as a battery at a fraction of the cost
With regards to UK solar we dont need to sub any more into existence.
The commercial retail office industrial etc sectors will continue to install PV since they can save 15p in not buying grid electricity
by 2023 the UK grid will be roughly 25% fossil fuel and 75% non fossil fuel on a yearly basis and we are committed to building a significant amount of offshore wind from 2023-2030 which will take us to even better than 25/75 so there is not much room for more solar PV
And summer mid day will not require much greening.
Today will be around 0 coal 12GW CCGT at mid day
The 4.8 GW of links to France/Norway under construction and the 2 GW link close to being agreed will cover most of that. The additional 20GW offshore wind power capacity that is going to be built will on average also produce 6GW during the summer months
The reality is, unless we see big demand increase in electricity, the UK grid is mostly solved 2023 and even better by 2030 with nil PV (although demand side will continue to install)0 -
Or an even clearer message that the government realised the FIT scheme had served its purpose ?I think I'd agree (and I'm sure the government must).
It is more a case of there is not much space for solar to expand into given what is under construction right now and what is committed to (30GW offshore wind by 2030)
If we install any significant amount of PV from here there is a chance a lot of it will have to be curtailed
2023 will be only around 25% fossil fuels on the grid
2023-2030 will see 15+ GW more offshore wind power
So unless there is a big increase in electricity demand then there is not much more that needs building than what is under construction and what is committed to.
EVs could allow a big increase in PV but for the UK offshore wind makes more sense than PV
Even for Summer months offshore wind does better than PV with ~30% CF during summer ~50% during winter compared to PV with ~17% in the peak months0 -
It is more a case of there is not much space for solar to expand into given what is under construction right now and what is committed to (30GW offshore wind by 2030)
Wind and solar are very complementary technologies when you look at the seasonal variation.
If we take 2018 as an example, there was very little wind during the summer months, and there is always very little sunshine in the winter months.
So while there is a huge expansion plan for offshore wind, we still need a large expansion of solar power to cover the summer time demand.
And of course we need batteries to iron out the variations in supply and demand.8.9kw solar. 12 panels ESE, 16 panels SSW. JA solar 320watt smart panels. Solar Edge 8KW HD wave inverter. Located Aberdeenshire0 -
HiOr an even clearer message that the government realised the FIT scheme had served its purpose ?I think I'd agree (and I'm sure the government must).
Yet the scheme could have been run down in a far more positive way, for example - maintaining a base percentage based tariff depending on a reducing installation cost threshold (£/kWp) could have driven the industry to provide more affordable individual microgeneration systems .... however, the relative influence of big business lobbyists over the interests of Joe Public seem to hold the high ground, as usual!
I'm remaining quite hopeful of a new microgeneration support scheme based on storage to surface quite soon(ish), especially so as this is where focus needs to be applied in order to create the demand necessary to kick-start & rapidly develop storage to a point where it's generally affordable as successfully as that achieved for PV.
The big problem here is big business, that's not only fossil fuel big business as faced by PV and other microgeneration technologies, but also the 'low carbon' big businesses that now are effectively looking to control the energy sector ... it's in their own interest to ensure that the market for their own product has as little competition as possible .....
.... that's why we see so much bias presented in both legacy & social media, as well as all forms of discussion boards ... likely including this one!
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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frozen_wastes wrote: »Wind and solar are very complementary technologies when you look at the seasonal variation.
If we take 2018 as an example, there was very little wind during the summer months, and there is always very little sunshine in the winter months.
So while there is a huge expansion plan for offshore wind, we still need a large expansion of solar power to cover the summer time demand.
This is not true, it seems true but it is not
Offshore wind power gets a higher CF even in the summer than PV gets in the summer and it does this in a better way. For instance look at the last 24 hours. Wind power has produced roughly twice as much energy as PV has. and it did this in a more stable easier to integrate way.
This is why the UK plans for significant offshore wind power expansion and very little additional solar. The UK engineers know what they are doing its not a conspiracy theory
Offshore wind gets ~50% CF in the winter ~30% in the summer
That means for a fixed GW amount wind power capacity will produce twice as much energy in the summer months than the same GW in PVAnd of course we need batteries to iron out the variations in supply and demand.
Probably undesirable.
Their construction is not clean nor FF and pollutant free
Plus they have fixed lives so need to be scrapped at some stage
It is better to have an offshore heavy grid with much less need for storage than a PV heavy grid with much more need for storage0 -
Hi
Yet the scheme could have been run down in a far more positive way, for example - maintaining a base percentage based tariff depending on a reducing installation cost threshold (£/kWp) could have driven the industry to provide more affordable individual microgeneration systems .... however, the relative influence of big business lobbyists over the interests of Joe Public seem to hold the high ground, as usual!
I'm remaining quite hopeful of a new microgeneration support scheme based on storage to surface quite soon(ish), especially so as this is where focus needs to be applied in order to create the demand necessary to kick-start & rapidly develop storage to a point where it's generally affordable as successfully as that achieved for PV.
The big problem here is big business, that's not only fossil fuel big business as faced by PV and other microgeneration technologies, but also the 'low carbon' big businesses that now are effectively looking to control the energy sector ... it's in their own interest to ensure that the market for their own product has as little competition as possible .....
.... that's why we see so much bias presented in both legacy & social media, as well as all forms of discussion boards ... likely including this one!
HTH
Z
You don't
Grow your own wheat
Kill your own cows
Make your own steel
Produce your own cement
Catch your own fish
Fabricate your own shoes
Its all a conspiracy by big business because we all know you can DIY everything in life because you are superman
Business is not evil, business is just a collection of people who specialize and produce goods and services at much higher productivity than you could do yourself
If you think it will cost you less to produce and store your own PV generated electricity, no one is stopping you from buying the PV and the batteries and disconnecting from the grid. Go ahead.
Everyone else is content paying ~£1.25 a day for their grid supplied electricity which will soon be 75% fossil fuel free generation (around 2023)0 -
The interest of Jo public is to not pay for your micogeneration directly or indirectly through their bills and taxes
If you want to do that you should, and are, free to do so.
Buy a kit & disconnect from the grid
I wouldn't so far far as to disconnect from the grid, but if this point of view prevailed 10 years ago, then renewable energy costs would be far higher than they are today, leaving all of us exposed to volatile fossil fuel prices a lot more than we are now.
Subsidies have their part to play in kickstarting new industries, but they are very sensitive to the timing of their removal. For solar, the costs have come down tremendously, but cost reductions have somewhat stalled on a UK level on account of the supply chain being decimated by the removal of support so soon.
Same goes for onshore wind power. It's the cheapest form of new electricity, and yet it's been shut out of new electricity auctions in much of the UK.
Businesses are indeed far more efficient in certain markets as you have expressed, but that's not a universally correct statement. Professional services are often highly overpriced for the value created, and people try and avoid such services as much as possible. Taxi services are just one such example, people will drive themselves as much as possible because generally it's cheaper, easier and faster.
Take the Australian electricity market for instance. The retail prices are astronomical but that phenomenon has more to do with locally produced coal and gas being exported to foreign markets at a higher price than was historically paid for locally. The residential solar market penetration in that country is partially a consequence of electricity rates being so high (coupled with the sunshine abundance of course). End result is retail leverage over the utility companies. It mean that the incumbent suppliers are seeing their electricity market becoming increasingly marginalised. That leads to ever higher electricity prices which spurs even more uptake of rooftop solar. At some point the residential customer could obtain enough leverage to disconnect from the grid for good.
I've certainly seen my own electricity prices rise up from 7p/kwH in the year 2004 to 17p today. That's faster than average wage increases, and that undermines public goodwill towards that industry.
As I've said before, solar doesn't need support. But we certainly don't need barriers put up either. Solar equipment is soon subject to a 20% rate of VAT, so it raises the question - why not charge a 20% rate of VAT on gas and electric as well? I think the answer is that utility companies would rather lobby the government hard to avoid such a level playing field.8.9kw solar. 12 panels ESE, 16 panels SSW. JA solar 320watt smart panels. Solar Edge 8KW HD wave inverter. Located Aberdeenshire0 -
Hifrozen_wastes wrote: »I wouldn't so far far as to disconnect from the grid, but if this point of view prevailed 10 years ago, then renewable energy costs would be far higher than they are today, leaving all of us exposed to volatile fossil fuel prices a lot more than we are now.
Subsidies have their part to play in kickstarting new industries, but they are very sensitive to the timing of their removal. For solar, the costs have come down tremendously, but cost reductions have somewhat stalled on a UK level on account of the supply chain being decimated by the removal of support so soon.
Same goes for onshore wind power. It's the cheapest form of new electricity, and yet it's been shut out of new electricity auctions in much of the UK.
Businesses are indeed far more efficient in certain markets as you have expressed, but that's not a universally correct statement. Professional services are often highly overpriced for the value created, and people try and avoid such services as much as possible. Taxi services are just one such example, people will drive themselves as much as possible because generally it's cheaper, easier and faster.
Take the Australian electricity market for instance. The retail prices are astronomical but that phenomenon has more to do with locally produced coal and gas being exported to foreign markets at a higher price than was historically paid for locally. The residential solar market penetration in that country is partially a consequence of electricity rates being so high (coupled with the sunshine abundance of course). End result is retail leverage over the utility companies. It mean that the incumbent suppliers are seeing their electricity market becoming increasingly marginalised. That leads to ever higher electricity prices which spurs even more uptake of rooftop solar. At some point the residential customer could obtain enough leverage to disconnect from the grid for good.
I've certainly seen my own electricity prices rise up from 7p/kwH in the year 2004 to 17p today. That's faster than average wage increases, and that undermines public goodwill towards that industry.
As I've said before, solar doesn't need support. But we certainly don't need barriers put up either. Solar equipment is soon subject to a 20% rate of VAT, so it raises the question - why not charge a 20% rate of VAT on gas and electric as well? I think the answer is that utility companies would rather lobby the government hard to avoid such a level playing field.
I wouldn't take it too seriously, it's simply part of the latest bout of button pressing by a long standing (under many guises!) individual (that's actually admitted it too!) for some reason or other ... at various stages it used to be pro-coal (as long as it wasn't nearby!) as well as nuclear (France is often raised as a model to follow!), gas has been in the mix, Germany & their initial solar penetration issues tend to be raised far more often than the known solution would suggest appropriate - then there's the national interconnections, transnational policy decisions, geographical discrepancies, housebuilding on the other side of the world, anti-renewable stance to claims of pro-renewable energy - pro-nuclear position to claimed indifference (apart from when anything involving nuclear is raised!) - the Norway approach, and don't forget various ramblings about Sweden, China et al ... add in (seemingly!) complex calculations based mainly on unsubstantiated (say)assumption, but sometimes supported by various highly selected sourced material (often accompanied by spin!) & you can start to see the picture ...
... note the common thread ... all things that none of us have a direct influence on apart from how we tend to think about voting in elections & how we look to live our own lives .... oh, and of course, having a dig at anyone/everyone that doesn't agree with the big business centralised generation approach being the only viable option available - in the meantime we're currently exporting ~85% of our very clean generation to the neighbours, that's local generation consumed locally with very little in the way of grid transport losses & opening up capacity on the HV infrastructure to be used for alternate sources ...
I often feel sorry for those that don't have the ability to lay prejudice well aside then stand back and see the big picture ... that includes industry players, their various agents & others with directly connected vested interests ...
Don't you just love those that tend to purposely attract honey making insects into their headwear for some form of self gratification & pleasure .... sad really, instead of expending all of the pent-up anger educating all us plebs & (possibly!) patricians, it'd probably be much more effective to simply stand up & become a politician ... then again ... who'd vote for such a candidate! ...
... 
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
frozen_wastes wrote: »Subsidies have their part to play in kickstarting new industries
Something close to 500 million PV panels were manufactured last year that is not a small industry any learning curve can be done with production of 10 million panels per week!!!but they are very sensitive to the timing of their removal. For solar, the costs have come down tremendously, but cost reductions have somewhat stalled on a UK level on account of the supply chain being decimated by the removal of support so soon.
Support was not removed 'so soon' the UK has already installed enough solar so that adding significantly more would be pointless considering everything that is under construction or committed to. As I keep saying we are already going to be 75% fossil free in the UK grid come 2023.Same goes for onshore wind power. It's the cheapest form of new electricity, and yet it's been shut out of new electricity auctions in much of the UK.
Once again why do we need additional mass onshore wind power when in 2023 we are already 75% non fossil fuel in the UK grid ?? and have commitments to build significantly more offshore wind 2023-2030
So what is the problem you are trying to solve?
Why do we need to sub into existence more solar or nuclear or tidal when more or less just building what is under construction and committed to solves most the problem
Businesses are indeed far more efficient in certain markets as you have expressed, but that's not a universally correct statement. Professional services are often highly overpriced for the value created, and people try and avoid such services as much as possible. Taxi services are just one such example, people will drive themselves as much as possible because generally it's cheaper, easier and faster.[/QUOTE]
Human taxis are a poor comparison.
Self drive taxis will be a good comparison
Once they are out you will likely opt to use robo EVs which will cost circa 30 cents a mile vs 60 cents a mile for your ownTake the Australian electricity market for instance. The retail prices are astronomical but that phenomenon has more to do with locally produced coal and gas being exported to foreign markets at a higher price than was historically paid for locally.
Aus wholesale prices arent particularly expensive.
Queensland wholesale prices converted to pounds £46/MWh
Likewise retail prices in queensland are 29 aus cents which = 15.7p/KWh so their prices are more or less the same as prices in the UK
If you want to see expensive prices look at germany, closer to 27p/Kwh or almost double uk/aus pricesThe residential solar market penetration in that country is partially a consequence of electricity rates being so high (coupled with the sunshine abundance of course). End result is retail leverage over the utility companies. It mean that the incumbent suppliers are seeing their electricity market becoming increasingly marginalised. That leads to ever higher electricity prices which spurs even more uptake of rooftop solar. At some point the residential customer could obtain enough leverage to disconnect from the grid for good.
This is just wishful thinking.
For a start virtually no one is disconnecting from the AUS grid, the opposite is happening hundreds of thousands of new build homes are being connected to the AUS grid. So even if hundreds of thousands were disconnecting (which is not happening) that would just offset those connecting to the grid.
But overall the reason the Aus wont disconnect from the grid is security of supply and an outlet to sell their excess summer PV generation. Batteries are too expensive and likely will be too expensive for a very long time.I've certainly seen my own electricity prices rise up from 7p/kwH in the year 2004 to 17p today. That's faster than average wage increases, and that undermines public goodwill towards that industry.
You need to get onto MSE and get a better deal
Where is the data for 2004?
But more importantly you pay ~£1.25 a day that is very affordable.
Just a 4KWp system and one battery will set you back in excess of £10,000 and it wont work as well as the grid and you would still need the grid to export in the summer and import in the winter.
You are stuck to the grid, not because an evil corporation doesn't want you to install solar and batteries but because the evil corporation charges you so little for something which works so well at a price point that is so cheap you dont want to go off gridAs I've said before, solar doesn't need support. But we certainly don't need barriers put up either. Solar equipment is soon subject to a 20% rate of VAT, so it raises the question - why not charge a 20% rate of VAT on gas and electric as well? I think the answer is that utility companies would rather lobby the government hard to avoid such a level playing field.
Why do we need mass PV when the grid is already 75% non fossil fuel once what is under construction comes online (in 2023)
Make PV panels 0% VAT for all I care
But pay them only what the wholesale price is at the time of generation (so more PV that is installed the less they get paid) and also charge the owners some administration cost. If you dont want to pay the admin cost and dont want to export your solar for 3p a unit (or whatever summer noon prices are) then go buy a battery and ideally disconnect from the grid altogether0
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