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CP Plus Windscreen Ticket Meadowhall

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  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    edited 9 September 2017 at 1:13AM
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    Yes to all of the above.

    So to start the ICO complaint off, the staff member - not you - needs to write to Meadowhall and British Land, to object to the processing and sharing of their private employment data with two third parties (the parking firm and you - regardless of family relationship, it is unwarranted use of that data), which has caused and is continuing to cause, significant distress.

    They should describe their own letter as a DPA Section 10 notice, stating that the use of their private employment data is in flagrant breach of the DPA principles, is wholly unjustified and he/she requires them to cease and desist and to tell their agents (the PPC) to delete the data about the employee.

    Finish by saying they require a reply within 21 days, after which a formal complaint will be lodged with the Information Commissioner.

    At least you have a POPLA code, unlike some, so meanwhile, you (the keeper) can also work on that.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • RobinofLoxley
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    I heard from a friend that a friend of theirs who works at Meadowhall said the Centre management was going round all the shops/outlets and asking the manager of each one to supply a list of their employees and their car registrations numbers.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    edited 9 September 2017 at 6:57PM
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    I heard from a friend that a friend of theirs who works at Meadowhall said the Centre management was going round all the shops/outlets and asking the manager of each one to supply a list of their employees and their car registrations numbers.
    Errrrrmmm...this gets worse. That's terrible, surely a massive DPA breach...

    That needs alleging in the ICO complaints, stating that this happened and Meadowhall need to explain their actions to the ICO.

    We've not seen good outcomes in some ICO complaints and they don't seem to get this industry, and I think there is a danger the ICO will assume that ALL PPCs can have 'keeper liability' and muddy the waters about the data being 'necessary'.

    The complaints to the ICO need to explain in words of on syllable, that:

    - CP Plus don't use POFA-compliant NTKs,

    - CP Plus can ONLY hold the driver liable

    - and that may well not be the same person a the keeper

    - who may well not be the same person as the Meadowhall Employee,

    - who may well not have contravened the rules at all on the material dates, nor even been there!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • PKandF
    PKandF Posts: 19 Forumite
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    A small update, I have been sent a screenshot of the vehicle registration facility used by staff members to register their cars for staff parking. Take note of the text at the bottom.

    http://i.cubeupload.com/Q9X5CS.jpg
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    edited 11 September 2017 at 12:29AM
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    Even better. A disclaimer that means nothing and they haven't adhered to; clearly they have no idea.

    But do be aware that the staff member needs to explain quite a lot to the ICO, as we have seen them not understand the nuances of a non-POFA PCN before.

    Rather like Honest John of the Telegraph who just (ASTONISHINGLY) told a keeper that were ''liable to pay the fine'' when not driving, sigh:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115684

    I think they might otherwise think, that a keeper's data is fair game/can be assumed to be the driver. Needs to be addressed in words of one syllable and quotes from Schedule 4, and explaining that this data has not only been shared inappropriately with Meadowhall staff and an agent, CP Plus, but also then repeated to the registered keeper of the car (you) a different person entirely.

    Show us the staff member's planned complaint to these parties who are sharing his/her private data around like people borrowing books at a book club. That complaint (as you know) goes in and has to be exhausted before the ICO complaint.

    And show us your POPLA appeal this month too.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • PKandF
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    Excellent stuff! I'm away for most of this coming week but after that it's full steam ahead with the above. I'll be sure to post them when they're ready.

    Thanks again for all your help!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    Imagine this scenario, shows why this is a horrendous DPA breach:

    What if the driver was a woman just split last year from an abusive husband, and he is the keeper of the car (as they've not yet separated all their finances and she's in hiding with use of that car, maybe for the kids' transport, maybe she always did drive it). And she got a job at Meadowhall to make ends meet, but doesn't want Mr abusive git to know...

    And CP Plus write and tell him they've been told the driver works at Meadowhall! Nononono.

    :eek:
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • RobinofLoxley
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    PKandF wrote: »
    A small update, I have been sent a screenshot of the vehicle registration facility used by staff members to register their cars for staff parking. Take note of the text at the bottom.

    http://i.cubeupload.com/Q9X5CS.jpg

    I like how their disclaimer says "Information and data provide will not be shared inappropriately with any external agency".

    That means it will be shared with whoever they think is appropriate!

    This Mallcomm app looks dodgy as well. It allows the management of the centre and the retail managers to track who's (staff) logged on and what they're up to. Another 3rd party with access to your data.

    If I worked there I definitely would not give Meadowhall any info about myself or my vehicle VRM. It would mean no access to the staff car park but also no ridiculous PCN's for simply visiting to shop, have a meal or go to the cinema etc.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    IMHO, Meadowhall employees should simply make up a VRN. Never give your real one.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • PKandF
    PKandF Posts: 19 Forumite
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    Okay ladies and gents, after a busy few weeks I've eventually got around to cobbling my first POPLA draft together for this appeal.

    Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated!


    Dear POPLA Assessor,

    As registered keeper, I appeal on the following grounds;

    1. A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge.
    3. The Notice to Drive does not fully comply with POFA 2012.
    4. The operator has offered no evidence showing the vehicle being parked in a restricted area.
    5. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself.
    6. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    1. A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.

    This operator has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

    The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

    ''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
    4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

    (a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

    *Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
    6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further ‘If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.’

    The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper’s address within the ‘relevant period’ which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.


    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge


    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


    3. The Notice to Driver does not fully comply with POFA 2012

    The operator has failed to specify a period within which the vehicle was parked.

    POFA paragraph 7(2)(a) states:

    7 (1) A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
    (2) The notice must:
    (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.

    As evidenced below, only a time of issue is listed, NOT a period.

    (PIC)


    4. The operator has offered no evidence showing the vehicle being parked in a restricted area.

    The vehicle in question was parked correctly within a marked bay, without causing obstruction, and within the customer parking area. Car parking is free, with no maximum stay limit.



    As shown below, the terms and conditions stipulated by the signage show no mention of a contravention for parking in a restricted area.

    (PIC)

    The operator has offered no evidence to dispute any of the facts above.



    5. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself.

    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.



    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

    (PIC)


    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.



    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    (PIC)

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    http://www-archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

    http://www.signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Outdoor-Dimensional-Sign-Letter-Best-Viewing-Distance-/10000000175068392/g.html

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.



    6. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.


    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
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