Viagogo - Can I Stop Them Charging Me For Cancelling a Sale?
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unholyangel wrote: »All of our consumer rights come from EU law - all of them.
Switzerland is not part of the EU etc but they are part of the single market and as such, have to adopt EU laws (at least as far as they pertain to the single market) - although they don't get any input into what those laws are.
I would've thought everyone would be aware of nuances like that given they've been discussed in detail over the last 2 years since the vote on brexit.
But you've totally failed to answer the actual questions I asked.
When translating the EU directive on unfair terms in consumer contracts into law, how do you know that the Swiss government agree with your thinking that a term stating that a company must be contacted by a consumer using their registered e-mail address only is classed as unfair?
It might be an illegal term under Swiss law, then again it might not be. Just because you are of the opinion that it is an unfair term doesn't mean that the Swiss lawmakers must also share that opinion.0 -
unholyangel wrote: »Why would they have to be mind readers? Particularly if OP told them the listing reference/gave them the link to the listing.
I've been in similar circumstances (as their customer service agents) and in those circumstances you might ask them if they're sure it was definitely our company (people do sometimes get confused), do they have a reference number, whats their details/if they might have used different details etc.
As marlie has said, it doesn't sound like OP gave them any reference details at all, he just emailed them and asked to cancel the listing, they said they couldn't find a listing on his account, he then says there was some "back and forth" which could well be them doing exactly as you said and trying to identify it to no avail. It may be good customer service to go out of your way like that but there is no legal obligation for a company to have to hold your hand and question every possible scenario to get to the bottom of something like this. It is the customers responsibility to give the company the correct details.0 -
marliepanda wrote: »Considering the OP couldn’t even find his listing on his account I somehow doubt he sent them a link. He said he asked them to make sure there were no active listings ‘in his name’
There not going to cancel all listings in his name, as I’m sure John smith and peter jones would be rather annoyed if their listings all got cancelled. We’re there any listings under the user name he provided? No.
So how would you imagine the conversation going?
OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?shaun_from_Africa wrote: »But you've totally failed to answer the actual questions I asked.
When translating the EU directive on unfair terms in consumer contracts into law, how do you know that the Swiss government agree with your thinking that a term stating that a company must be contacted by a consumer using their registered e-mail address only is classed as unfair?
It might be an illegal term under Swiss law, then again it might not be. Just because you are of the opinion that it is an unfair term doesn't mean that the Swiss lawmakers must also share that opinion.
How did I totally fail to answer your questions? I answered the first question perfectly. As for the 2nd, if you want to prove that swiss statute allows for a retailer to dictate not just what format it comes in but from which identifier (email address, postal address, phone number etc), then you should do the leg work for that - not me.
But I'll repeat, there is nothing in their terms stipulating that contact must be from the registered email address so its a moot point regardless of the answer.As marlie has said, it doesn't sound like OP gave them any reference details at all, he just emailed them and asked to cancel the listing, they said they couldn't find a listing on his account, he then says there was some "back and forth" which could well be them doing exactly as you said and trying to identify it to no avail. It may be good customer service to go out of your way like that but there is no legal obligation for a company to have to hold your hand and question every possible scenario to get to the bottom of something like this. It is the customers responsibility to give the company the correct details.
Look I get you guys want to beat OP mercilessly over the head for every way he fails to be perfect but thats not my gig and not why I'm here on MSE.
Here are the facts:
1) OP withdrew the offer which means it cannot be accepted in line with switerzlands code of obligations article 9 - the only requirement here is that the withdrawal needs to be communicated either before or immediately after acceptance takes place.
2) There is no term requiring them to contact them using the registered email address therefore, one cannot be imposed (even if it was allowed by law) retrospectively.
Now if we want to get into the "what ifs"...perhaps OP didn't provide them with any email address. Perhaps OP emailed them a combination of his name, address, phone number, listing reference. details of the listing etc and they only searched based on the email address that he never gave as part of his details. Would you still say thats OP's fault that they weren't able to locate his listing? Even though they were able to locate it based off the other details but chose not to?You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
unholyangel wrote: »So how would you imagine the conversation going?
OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?
How did I totally fail to answer your questions? I answered the first question perfectly. As for the 2nd, if you want to prove that swiss statute allows for a retailer to dictate not just what format it comes in but from which identifier (email address, postal address, phone number etc), then you should do the leg work for that - not me.
But I'll repeat, there is nothing in their terms stipulating that contact must be from the registered email address so its a moot point regardless of the answer.
Look I get you guys want to beat OP mercilessly over the head for every way he fails to be perfect but thats not my gig and not why I'm here on MSE.
Here are the facts:
1) OP withdrew the offer which means it cannot be accepted in line with switerzlands code of obligations article 9 - the only requirement here is that the withdrawal needs to be communicated either before or immediately after acceptance takes place.
2) There is no term requiring them to contact them using the registered email address therefore, one cannot be imposed (even if it was allowed by law) retrospectively.
Now if we want to get into the "what ifs"...perhaps OP didn't provide them with any email address. Perhaps OP emailed them a combination of his name, address, phone number, listing reference. details of the listing etc and they only searched based on the email address that he never gave as part of his details. Would you still say thats OP's fault that they weren't able to locate his listing? Even though they were able to locate it based off the other details but chose not to?
I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.
There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?0 -
I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.
There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?
I agree with this. Personal responsibility goes a long way.
unholyangel, your posts are good in an academic sense but OP needs practical help. I'm not having a go at you like, you provide some useful info, but OP is trying to do a mix of weaseling out of their responsibility and argue a thin case. I'm of the mindset that people in that situation should have to PAY for solicitors etc to provide the level of advice that you give + to (most importantly, and the part you don't help with) put that plan into place.0 -
unholyangel wrote: »So how would you imagine the conversation going?
OP asking to cancel, them saying theres nothing to cancel and OP just saying "oh okay then" despite telling us he went "back and forth" with them?
He did tell us there was a back and forth. From that back and forth the OP still didn’t realise ‘wait, maybe these listings aren’t on this account’ and then went on to email them about the same account they’d had the back and forth about.
So you say there must have been an enlightening conversation, but expect viagogo to magically know it was a different account yet not expecting the OP to realise he’d made two accounts... so not that enlightening at all...0 -
I get that you want to help OP, but that doesn't mean the rest of us want to beat him mercilessly across the head or that he should be perfect.
There is obviously a lot none of us know about what actually happened so all we can do is try to fill in the blanks. What we do know is that OP mistakingly bought tickets to the wrong event, then mistakingly set up two accounts with Viagogo (possibly already had one and set up a second), then mistakingly tried to log in and contact them using the wrong account. At what point does it stop being the company's or somebody else's fault that OP has made a catalogue of mistakes? At what point does he have to take some personal responsibility for his own actions?
You've said that a few times now but as I said, we don't know which email OP used so that's another thing we're speculating on.
Also, if you're not looking to beat him for not being perfect, then why is the only argument being made against him the fact he had more than 1 account? People have a habit of doing that on this board. They don't give a stuff what the law actually says or what the OP's consumer rights are - they just want to beat the OP over the head with any failure whether real or imagined.
When I put forth a possible version of events in my earlier post and asked if you'd feel the same if that were the circumstances, whats your reply to that?You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
I use viagogo all the time to sell tickets. You provide a name and email address, nothing more.
If you contacted them with the wrong email address it would be impossible to find your listing as names are not unique, only email addresses are.
Unfortunately OP you have no legal recourse here and must take the blame. Is there any way you can reverse the cancellation of your tickets and sell them to the viagogo buyer?0 -
Viagogo are touts. Pure and simple. They hide behind their Swiss corporate status and play fast and loose with consumer law.
I think getting anything from them will be an uphill task regardless of the rights and wrongs.0 -
marliepanda wrote: »He did tell us there was a back and forth. From that back and forth the OP still didn’t realise ‘wait, maybe these listings aren’t on this account’ and then went on to email them about the same account they’d had the back and forth about.
So you say there must have been an enlightening conversation, but expect viagogo to magically know it was a different account yet not expecting the OP to realise he’d made two accounts... so not that enlightening at all...
Of course OP didn't realise - OP was unaware they had 2 accounts.
The difference is that viagogo should know how their system works - that you need to be logged into your account to see your listing.
Also, generally you can only be liable for something that is within your control. Therefore OP cannot be liable for any limitations or failures of viagogos system or practices - only viagogo can.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0
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