Substituting Capital Gains for Income

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Fed
Fed Posts: 106 Forumite
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edited 14 June 2018 at 2:12PM in Savings & investments
I've built up a decent sized portfolio all invested in Vanguard Lifestrategy funds. I currently sell and buy near at the end of the tax year to crystallise my capital gains and use up my allowance. I also use up my ISA allowance. Even if there's a bear market round the corner it would be reasonable to anticipate that my average gain pa over the next 20 years will outstrip my yearly capital allowance.

However I have no earned income so the majority of my £13,850 personal allowance (including dividends) goes unused. The solution would seem to be to move some of the portfolio into a high yield ETF. I looked at Vanguard FTSE All-World High Dividend Yield but at a yield of 3.11% it would require a fair portion of my portfolio to make a big difference, which would come at a cost of lower overall diversification.

Wondering if anyone had any ideas of how to go about it or suggestions of other ETFs to consider if that is the best route?

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  • BLB53
    BLB53 Posts: 1,583 Forumite
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    When you say you have no income, I am thinking you hold accumulation units however there will be income generated by the fund which is taxable so check out the level of this from your annual tax statement before you dive into income ETFs.
  • Fed
    Fed Posts: 106 Forumite
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    Yes sorry, I should have said earned income. I declare all the dividends
  • Tom99
    Tom99 Posts: 5,371 Forumite
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    Unless you need the extra income how does using more of your personal allowance help?
  • bowlhead99
    bowlhead99 Posts: 12,295 Forumite
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    edited 14 June 2018 at 2:58PM
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    Moving from a "normal" ETF which holds a generalist mix of companies to a higher yield one which has a specialist mix to focus on high income payers, is one way to shift the profile of your returns towards income at the expense of gains.

    However, at different parts of the economic cycle there can be a difference in total returns between specialist equity income funds (such as Vanguard's FTSE all world high dividend yield ETF or their global equity income fund, both of which yield about 3%) and generalist equity funds (such as their Lifestrategy 100 or their FTSE Global All Cap fund, both of which yield about 1.75%)

    So, you might be expecting to improve your tax situation in terms of taking an extra 1.25% of income each year and having lower growth prospects... but this will not necessarily play out because in some years the total return is actually lower by using the income funds instead of generalist ones, while at other times it would be the other way around.

    Really, your asset allocation is what drives your total returns over time, and although it might be a preference to avoid tax by having lower gains and avoiding the 10% CGT tax on the portion of gains that can't fit into your exemption, it won't improve your net situation if your gross profits are a little lower on the first place.

    Tax effects are certainly something to be aware of and plan around, but if you let your tax planning drive all your asset allocation, it could be a case of "the tail wagging the dog". Generally the way to approach investing is to first work out what underlying investment types you want or need, and then only as a secondary thing, look how to accomplish that tax-efficiently.

    Some parts of the world have companies paying a relatively higher proportion of their value as dividends, and so do some company types on an industry basis or regional basis (eg tobacco companies generate high divs, Amazon generates none but is still very valuable, others prefer share buybacks). If you focus just on companies that pay the highest divs you will perhaps be skewing your portfolio exposure away from certain types of companies and regions and towards others. A small amount of tax might not be enough compensation if one set of companies gives you twice the profit one year than the one that saves you a small amount of tax on a small part of your portfolio returns.
    Tom99 wrote: »
    Unless you need the extra income how does using more of your personal allowance help?

    Because presumably by focussing on something with higher income (which doesn't get taxed due to bigger allowances, and then only at 7.5%) at the expense of higher growth (which is closer to getting taxed, and at 10%), one might expect a better result in terms of less tax leakage.

    Whether you get that in real life however, will depend on whether the overall gross returns before and after are consistent, or differ dramatically from year to year. Compromising total return for a particular type of return might not be ideal.
  • kidmugsy
    kidmugsy Posts: 12,709 Forumite
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    edited 14 June 2018 at 3:39PM
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    There are funds - some of them with "maximiser" in their title - which are active investors specialising in paying high dividend income. Part of it they generate by effectively selling future potential capital gains and treating the payments they receive as income. I suppose you might consider those. If I knew anything about derivatives I suppose I could try to suggest a way whereby you could mimic this procedure yourself. But I don't. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if there are other means of replacing (potential) capital gains by income, though I dare say there are more procedures for doing the reverse.
    Free the dunston one next time too.
  • kidmugsy
    kidmugsy Posts: 12,709 Forumite
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    edited 14 June 2018 at 4:04PM
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    I know. How about the different classes of shares in "split" investment trusts? You could buy the class that churns out income. This list is 6 months out of date but shows the sort of thing I mean: scroll down to p36.
    https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/statistics/aic-stats
    If those shares make a capital loss you could set it against your capital gains at Vanguard or wherever.

    You could explore the whole document for high income payers. p27 has quite a few. If an investment trust takes your eye you could follow it up at https://www.theaic.co.uk
    or at trustnet.

    UPDATE: you could google
    high yield etf uk
    Free the dunston one next time too.
  • Fed
    Fed Posts: 106 Forumite
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    edited 15 June 2018 at 9:23AM
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    Tom99 wrote: »
    Unless you need the extra income how does using more of your personal allowance help?

    As bowl points out, say my portfolio returns 15k in a year all in capital gain and I sell then I get £11,700 tax free using my allowance and the remaining £3,300 is taxed. If however it returns 15k but with £11,700 in capital gain and £3,300 in dividends then both are covered by my capital gain and personal allowance. I am then free to reinvest at a new base price. At present i'm carrying forward capital gains that at some point will be subject to tax
    bowlhead99 wrote: »
    However, at different parts of the economic cycle there can be a difference in total returns between specialist equity income funds (such as Vanguard's FTSE all world high dividend yield ETF or their global equity income fund, both of which yield about 3%) and generalist equity funds (such as their Lifestrategy 100 or their FTSE Global All Cap fund, both of which yield about 1.75%)

    Thanks a lot bowl, that's pretty much as I thought then. No way to skew the returns without changing the fundamental equity distribution. [STRIKE]Ran some very rough figures as a lot of factors at work but over 10 years a standard global fund would need to outperform an income fund by 0.19% before taking into account reinvestment fees[/STRIKE] Or not that assumed all gains were through dividends for the income fund which wouldn't be the case. It would be ~0.1%
  • Fed
    Fed Posts: 106 Forumite
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    kidmugsy wrote: »
    There are funds - some of them with "maximiser" in their title - which are active investors specialising in paying high dividend income. Part of it they generate by effectively selling future potential capital gains and treating the payments they receive as income. I suppose you might consider those. If I knew anything about derivatives I suppose I could try to suggest a way whereby you could mimic this procedure yourself. But I don't. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if there are other means of replacing (potential) capital gains by income, though I dare say there are more procedures for doing the reverse.

    Thanks. From a quick google it looks like you sacrifice large potential growth for the added income, far more than you would pay in tax. I will check out the other link you posted
  • MK62
    MK62 Posts: 1,450 Forumite
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    You'd probably need to give at least some idea of the pot size in question, the amount you take from it each year for living expenses (as your personal allowance remains unused I assume that's how you are financing your day to day living costs), how you fund your ISA, whether you have any other sources of capital, your age and status......plus probably a few other things I didn't mention off the top of my head.

    Without the information, all you'll get are hazy....you could do this, depending on that.....type answers.


    PS - do you sell your whole portfolio (or large part of) and then buy it back near the end of each tax year?
  • kidmugsy
    kidmugsy Posts: 12,709 Forumite
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    Fed wrote: »
    Thanks. From a quick google it looks like you sacrifice large potential growth for the added income.

    Yeah, but the growth you sacrifice may never happen.
    Free the dunston one next time too.
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