What stamp duty do I pay?

Tom99 · 15 January 2020 at 5:29AM

Scorer15 wrote: »

Sorry we moved into the property in April 2012 but actually completed the purchase prior to that. It was a brand new build and we were the first people to move in. There were delays in the build so we didn't actually move in and start paying the mortgage until April but we had technically completed the mortgage a few months beforehand. I'm just used to saying April as that's when the mortgage runs from.

SDLT Geek i think this must be the calculation that the solicitor is now using, although they are now satisfied that £800 is the number. They said that they need to go with what they know to be true to the best of their knowledge at the time of submission and are accepting HMRC's phone advice for that. As I say, I can afford the stamp duty and think it's actually very cheap, it's just one of those technicalities that didn't seem clear and finding an exact answer hasn't been easy.

I'm more than happy to pay the £800 and if HMRC want to come chasing me for more that I'm due to pay then that's fine, at least I might be able to engage them in more of a conversation when they want something rather than someone on the phone who knows very little, or relying on postal letters.

It's unlikely you completed on the purchase a few months before you were allowed to move in but download the latest title register which will give you the date you completed:

https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/eservices/FindAProperty/view/QuickEnquiryInit.do

Scorer15 · 17 January 2020 at 2:01PM

Well I just mean that it was like we were all done and dusted with admin and then were told we couldn't move into the new build and were told to wait.Then we moved in around April. It could even have been in March, I just know the first mortgage payment was in the April.

I think it would have been a bit unfair at that point to say 'well today there's been a law change and now you have to pay stamp duty through no fault of your own even though you had everything in place months ago and were literally waiting to pick up the key'. I just know that it was outlined to us that stamp duty wasn't something we had to consider. When I was told that stamp duty isn't something you need to think of as a first time buyer by the housing agency I was buying from I didn't automatically think I needed to opt into paying the sum of zero in case of future purchases.

And thanks I'll check that out!

Edit - Turns out it was 10th April according to the land registry

SDLT_Geek · 18 January 2020 at 1:21PM

Scorer15 wrote: »

I think it would have been a bit unfair at that point to say 'well today there's been a law change and now you have to pay stamp duty through no fault of your own even though you had everything in place months ago and were literally waiting to pick up the key'. I just know that it was outlined to us that stamp duty wasn't something we had to consider. When I was told that stamp duty isn't something you need to think of as a first time buyer by the housing agency I was buying from I didn't automatically think I needed to opt into paying the sum of zero in case of future purchases.
There was no "wriggle room" for the ending date of the previous incarnation of first time buyers' relief on 24 March 2013. But as it was, it was a sensible decision on 10 April 2013 for you not to elect to pay SDLT on the market value then, but to keep the use of the money unless and until you staircased to over 80%.

Edit - Turns out it was 10th April according to the land registry

So that makes the SDLT legally due on staircasing out £1,940 (using your figures).

Scorer15 · 18 January 2020 at 1:23PM

Just out of curiosity, if the solicitor has phoned HMRC and thinks themselves that we are now due to only pay £800 and I pay that,what would happen? Like would HMRC come chasing for the remainder if they think it should be more or could it potentially be more than that, or more serious than that?

00ec25 · 18 January 2020 at 2:05PM

Scorer15 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, if the solicitor has phoned HMRC and thinks themselves that we are now due to only pay £800 and I pay that,what would happen? Like would HMRC come chasing for the remainder if they think it should be more or could it potentially be more than that, or more serious than that?

if you are asking will tax evasion be detected, the answer is possibly, may be, yes, no. If found out will you be penalised? yes. How badly? depends

HMRC computers will spot the original SDLT returns and the new one. Those computers may be programmed to flag up instances where the figures don't add up, and an error threshold has been tripped.

I appreciate it is tempting to pay less money because you want to, but really what you ought to be doing is asking the solicitor to revisit their calculation having shown them this thread.

SDLT on Shared ownership is not bread and butter work for solicitors, unlike ordinary conveyancing and many of them have little experience of it. Even SDLTGeek had no knowledge of it before coming here, but now he does, and his calculations correspond with HMRC guidance which you can check yourself in the links already given to you by applying your numbers to example 2. Your solicitor's patently do not.

Scorer15 · 19 January 2020 at 3:05AM

Well it's not so much I want to avoid it, it's just that it had so far seemed that neither me, the solicitor, nor HMRC have been able to put an exact figure on it, nor decide things such as if I am still a first time buyer. Unfortunately HMRCs lack of availability to engage in dialogue, or confirm in writing what they say on the phone is a major part of that.

I'll certainly get back in touch with the solictor though and revisit the calculation. Thanks for the replies to the thread to all.

00ec25 · 19 January 2020 at 4:21AM

Scorer15 wrote: »

Well it's not so much I want to avoid it, it's just that it had so far seemed that neither me, the solicitor, nor HMRC have been able to put an exact figure on it, nor decide things such as if I am still a first time buyer. Unfortunately HMRCs lack of availability to engage in dialogue, or confirm in writing what they say on the phone is a major part of that.

I'll certainly get back in touch with the solictor though and revisit the calculation. Thanks for the replies to the thread to all.

unfortunately following the "cuts", HMRC frontline staff are mostly low level call centre operatives whose training is in how to read scripts from the screen in front of them. Obviously each person must deal with an enormous range of queries, and in the main can answer low level questions satisfactorily, but they lack the depth as you found, are not trained, in how to search HMRC systems themselves and so cannot assist with the depth of knowledge of specific taxes that 5 minutes with google will set you on the track of.

sadly, the cuts also mean HMRC does not have the resources to pass "deeper" queries back to the few remaining technical staff, (unless they scent money in the making) so calls get brushed off. Theoretically you can still write in and directly ask for your query to be passed back to "technical" - who will give accurate and complete answer. Trouble with that is a) it has to be opened in the first place, and the backlog on merely opening envelopes is often reported to be breathtaking (months not weeks) and b) technical staff have huge workloads and even slower response times.

itmakessense · 23 January 2020 at 2:46PM

sdlt calc online. or Ask a good conveyancing solicitor

martindow · 24 January 2020 at 12:30PM

If the OP follows the advice of the solicitor to pay £800 (which appears to be incorrect) wouldn't it turn into the solicitor's problem if HMRC subsequently came chasing for the extra? Maybe Scorer would have to pay the difference between 800 and 1940 but any penalties should fall on the solicitor who has messed up.

Scorer15 · 1 April 2020 at 4:08PM

Just an update on this that HMRC wrote back to me just yesterday and confirmed that they are unable to tell me how much I owe because the matter is complex. I mean, I know it's complex that's why I wrote to them! The solicitor is now calculating the stamp duty to be £1940 which I am now going to pay. It's just rather annoying to be told one figure and then for the people responsible to collect the tax to not even be able to work it out. If I had overpaid for any reason when would I ever find that out?
Either way at least I now agree with the fee. Thanks for your help everyone.

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What stamp duty do I pay?

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