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PCN "cancelled" by Creativecarparks but enforced by CE
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wistful
Posts: 10 Forumite
Hi.
In February 2019 I received a PCN from Civil Enforcement stating that my vehicle had exceeded the parking time allowed at a retail park in King's Heath, Birmingham. My wife went to the retailer, Topps Tiles, the day after we received the PCN to complain. One of the staff there said not to worry because she would contact the operator of the car park to request for the PCN to be cancelled. I emailed the member of staff the PCN number and received an email back saying the PCN had been cancelled with a screenshot of the message received re this on the staff member's phone attached to the email. The screenshot said
clients.creativecarpark.co.uk says
We will no longer contact the driver about this PCN.
Please contact the driver and let them know the ticket has been cancelled.
(The screenshot did not have any reference to my details or PCN attached.)
Despite this I received a further request for payment from Civil Enforcement. I contacted the member of staff at Topp's Tiles who had attempted to help but she was unable to help further as the car park ownership had since changed hands and the link on her phone to creativecarpark no longer worked. I contacted creativecarpark who refused to engage with the matter, stating that they do not deal with PCN appeals and also stating that the PCN had not been cancelled and referring me to Civil Enforcement's appeal process. I appealed to Civil Enforcement re the PCN on the grounds that it had been cancelled but the appeal was unsuccessful. I appealed to POPLA on the grounds that no payment was due as the PCN had been cancelled. The appeal was turned down. The response to the appeal, received on 21/05/19, states that,
"Whilst I appreciate the reasons for the appellant's appeal and the evidence of the texts provided which shows that Creativecarparks.co.uk stated that the ticket had been cancelled, I am satisfied that this PCN has not been cancelled as an appeal has been made to POPLA and a case file has been submitted by the operator. This suggests that the operator wishes to continue with this PCN. Ultimately, it is POPLA's role to assess the terms and conditions of the car park and to determine if the appellant did indeed comply with those terms. The signs within this site advise of a one hour maximum stay period. The appellant has remained on site for one hour and 23 minutes therefore, exceeding the maximum stay period. If the appellant was advised by Creative carparksthat this PCN was cancelled, this will be a dispute between him and Creative Carparks. This is a third party dispute which POPLA cannot become involved in. The operator who manages the car park is Civil Enforcement. I have received no evidence to suggest that Civil Enforcement agreed to cancel this PCN."
I did not point out to POPLA that, to the best of my understanding, Creativecrparks and Civil Enforcement are two arms of the same organisation. I don't know if this would have affected their decision. I presumed they would have known this.
I received a letter before action on 12th November 2019 which I did not respond to. I received a County Court Claim Form on 23rd December with an issue date of 23rd December which I have responded to by returning the acknowledgment of service and ticking the box, "I intend to defend all of this claim". THe amount claimed is now £194.96 + Court fee £25 + Legal representative's costs £50. Toatla amount £269.96. I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement dated 3rd January 2020 with their "Particulars of Claim." I have not yet submitted my defence to the court.
I would be grateful for any advice as to how to proceed from this point.
In February 2019 I received a PCN from Civil Enforcement stating that my vehicle had exceeded the parking time allowed at a retail park in King's Heath, Birmingham. My wife went to the retailer, Topps Tiles, the day after we received the PCN to complain. One of the staff there said not to worry because she would contact the operator of the car park to request for the PCN to be cancelled. I emailed the member of staff the PCN number and received an email back saying the PCN had been cancelled with a screenshot of the message received re this on the staff member's phone attached to the email. The screenshot said
clients.creativecarpark.co.uk says
We will no longer contact the driver about this PCN.
Please contact the driver and let them know the ticket has been cancelled.
(The screenshot did not have any reference to my details or PCN attached.)
Despite this I received a further request for payment from Civil Enforcement. I contacted the member of staff at Topp's Tiles who had attempted to help but she was unable to help further as the car park ownership had since changed hands and the link on her phone to creativecarpark no longer worked. I contacted creativecarpark who refused to engage with the matter, stating that they do not deal with PCN appeals and also stating that the PCN had not been cancelled and referring me to Civil Enforcement's appeal process. I appealed to Civil Enforcement re the PCN on the grounds that it had been cancelled but the appeal was unsuccessful. I appealed to POPLA on the grounds that no payment was due as the PCN had been cancelled. The appeal was turned down. The response to the appeal, received on 21/05/19, states that,
"Whilst I appreciate the reasons for the appellant's appeal and the evidence of the texts provided which shows that Creativecarparks.co.uk stated that the ticket had been cancelled, I am satisfied that this PCN has not been cancelled as an appeal has been made to POPLA and a case file has been submitted by the operator. This suggests that the operator wishes to continue with this PCN. Ultimately, it is POPLA's role to assess the terms and conditions of the car park and to determine if the appellant did indeed comply with those terms. The signs within this site advise of a one hour maximum stay period. The appellant has remained on site for one hour and 23 minutes therefore, exceeding the maximum stay period. If the appellant was advised by Creative carparksthat this PCN was cancelled, this will be a dispute between him and Creative Carparks. This is a third party dispute which POPLA cannot become involved in. The operator who manages the car park is Civil Enforcement. I have received no evidence to suggest that Civil Enforcement agreed to cancel this PCN."
I did not point out to POPLA that, to the best of my understanding, Creativecrparks and Civil Enforcement are two arms of the same organisation. I don't know if this would have affected their decision. I presumed they would have known this.
I received a letter before action on 12th November 2019 which I did not respond to. I received a County Court Claim Form on 23rd December with an issue date of 23rd December which I have responded to by returning the acknowledgment of service and ticking the box, "I intend to defend all of this claim". THe amount claimed is now £194.96 + Court fee £25 + Legal representative's costs £50. Toatla amount £269.96. I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement dated 3rd January 2020 with their "Particulars of Claim." I have not yet submitted my defence to the court.
I would be grateful for any advice as to how to proceed from this point.
0
Comments
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Find the NEWBIE sticky and read post # 2. Now that you have posted the issue date KeithP will be along to give you some deadlines for submitting your defence and some other useful information. Within the NEWBIE sticky post # 2 there are links to 17 pre-written defences. Read those and, if the claimant has added £60 spurious costs (not the £50 solicitor costs), also read threads by CEC16 and basher52.0
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I received a County Court Claim Form on 23rd December with an issue date of 23rd December which I have responded to by returning the acknowledgment of service and ticking the box, "I intend to defend all of this claim".
With a Claim Issue Date of [STRIKE]23rd December[/STRIKE] 20th December, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on [STRIKE]Monday 27th January 2020[/STRIKE] Wednesday 22nd January 2020 to file your Defence.Sorry, I gave incorrect information re the Issue Date. I received the Claim Form on 23rd December but the Issue Date was 20th December.
That's less than two weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.
When you are happy with the content, your Defence could be filed via email as suggested here:-
Print your Defence.
- Sign it and date it.
- Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
- Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
- Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
- No need to do anything on MCOL, but do check it after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not, chase the CCBC until it is.
There is more to do after having filed your Defence...- Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire. Nothing of interest there. Just file it.
- Wait for your own Directions Questionnaire from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then complete it as described by bargepole in his 'what happens when' post.
- The completed DQ should be returned by email to the CCBC to the same address and in the same way as your Defence was filed earlier.
- Send a copy of your completed DQ to the Claimant - to their address on your Claim Form.
0 - Sign it and date it.
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Have you not told CEL what creativecarpark said to which you have proof.
Where do CEL fit into this as they did not issue the ticket ???0 -
LOL, this would be funny if it were not so serious as a court claim.
Send a copy of what's happened to Steve Clark and Gemma Dorans at the BPA:I emailed the member of staff the PCN number and received an email back saying the PCN had been cancelled with a screenshot of the message received re this on the staff member's phone attached to the email. The screenshot said
clients.creativecarpark.co.uk says
We will no longer contact the driver about this PCN.
Please contact the driver and let them know the ticket has been cancelled.
steve.c@britishparking.co.uk
and
gemma.d@britishparking.co.uk
...and ask them to ask CEL what on earth has gone wrong in this case where clearly the PCN was cancelled by CEL/Creative, and you proved it but they are denying it. If you have the date/time of the email tell them that detail & attach your copy.
Do that now.
Then if you've done the AOS, crack on with drafting a defence after that.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks very much for the replies and useful information. Sorry, I gave incorrect information re the Issue Date. I received the Claim Form on 23rd December but the Issue Date was 20th December. Please can you advise when the deadline is to submit my defence. Also when I have produced a defence can I post it here, on this thread, for advice and comments?0
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Thanks so much Coupon-mad. Very encouraging advice. I will do that straight away.0
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Dues this car park behind top topps tiles, or is it a multiple retail outletFrom the Plain Language Commission:
"The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"0 -
Beamerguy. Civil Enforcement did issue the PCN. ToppsTiles used their contact details for the car park management to request cancellation of the ticket and received a text message stating that the PCN had been cancelled from their contact which was creativecarpark. I used Civil Enforcement's online appeals process to appeal the PCN on the grounds that it had been cancelled by Creativecarpark. They rejected the appeal and so I appealed to POPLA on the same grounds.I do not have any correspondence from Civil Enforcement outlining why the appeal was rejected when I had evidence that the PCN had been cancelled by creativecarpark. I think it was all done through their website's online appeal process. I have today emailed Civil Enforcement an SAR request, including any earlier appeal process correspondence.
Coupon-mad. The email I received was from the member of staff at ToppsTiles who received the cancellation notification on her mobile phone from creativecarpark. The email had a screenshot attached of the cancellation information that she received from creativecarpark. The screenshot did not identify me as the customer whose ticket had been cancelled but it was sent by creativecarpark in response to the request from Topps Tiles that my specific PCN be cancelled and she used my PCN number to make that request. The email trail is copied below - with any personal details omitted. Shall I send all the relevant information to steve.c and gemma.d as you advised earlier?
Email trail
From: office at creativecarpark
Subject: RE: PCN
Date: 3 April 2019 at 10:38:56 BST
to Me
Good morning,
Thank you for your email.
Please note that the PCN has not been cancelled.
As stated before, we do not deal with parking charge notice appeals.
If you wish to appeal the parking charge notice or make a complain you must do so in writing to: CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD, Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool, L2 3PF. Alternatively, you can submit an online appeal at
Please contact the Enforcement company.
Yours faithfully,
Admin Team
Creative Car Park Limited
33/35 Daws Lane, London NW7 4SD
Tel 0870 919 8000
From: Me
Sent: 28 March 2019 18:22
To: creativecarpark
Subject: Re: PCN
Dear Admin Team,
Thank you for your reply. I have a number of further requests.
1. Please can you explain why a notification that the PCN was cancelled was sent by creativecarpark to Topps Tiles if the PCN has not been cancelled?
2. As previously requested please can you identify a named individual to whom I can address correspondence.
3. As previously requested please can you send me details as to how I can make an official complaint about your company.
From Me.
On 28 Mar 2019, at 11:46,
Email from creativecarpark
Good afternoon,
Thank you for your email.
Please note that the PCN has not been cancelled.
As stated before, we do not deal with parking charge notice appeals.
If you wish to appeal the parking charge notice you must do so in writing to: CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD, Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool, L2 3PF. Alternatively, you can submit an online appeal at
Please contact the Enforcement company as per above.
Please include your Parking Charge Notice number and vehicle registration number in your appeal letter or email.
Yours faithfully,
Admin Team
Creative Car Park Limited
33/35 Daws Lane, London NW7 4SD
Tel 0870 919 8000
From: Me
Sent: 23 March 2019 15:27
To: office at creativecarpark
Subject: Re: PCN
Dear Admin Team,
Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately it has not helped me at all and is identical to the last email you sent me. I have not asked you to “deal with parking charge notice appeals”, I have asked you to provide confirmation of an action taken by your company as per my previous email. I am requesting this information for the third time.
I would also request that you send me details as to how I can make an official complaint about your company. Please could a named individual reply to this email rather than the anonymous “Admin team”.
Regards,
Me
On 22 Mar 2019, at 16:25,
email: office creativecarpark
Good afternoon,
Please note we do not deal with parking charge notice appeals.
If you wish to appeal the parking charge notice you must do so in writing to: CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD, Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool, L2 3PF. Alternatively, you can submit an online appeal at
Please contact the Enforcement company as per above.
Please include your Parking Charge Notice number and vehicle registration number in your appeal letter or email.
Yours faithfully,
Admin Team
Creative Car Park Limited
33/35 Daws Lane, London NW7 4SD
Tel 0870 919 8000
From: Me
Sent: 22 March 2019 12:08
To: email office at creativecarpark
Subject: Re: PCN
Dear Admin Team,
Thank you for your email.
Please can you confirm that on 6th February 2019 your organisation issued a cancellation notice for the parking charge PCN. If you are unable to do this please can you advise me who to direct my request to within your organisation that could provide this confirmation.
Regards,
Me
On 15 Mar 2019, at 11:31,
From email: office creativecarpark
Good morning,
Please note we do not deal with parking charge notice appeals.
If you wish to appeal the parking charge notice you must do so in writing to: CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD, Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool, L2 3PF. Alternatively, you can submit an online appeal at
Please include your Parking Charge Notice number and vehicle registration number in your appeal letter or email.
Yours faithfully,
Admin Team
Creative Car Park Limited
33/35 Daws Lane, London NW7 4SD
Tel 0870 919 8000
From: Me
Sent: 11 March 2019 12:50
To: office at creativecarpark
Cc: Topps Kings Heath
Subject: PCN
Hi,
I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd today requesting £100 “full payment” of the PCN referred to below. At the time the PCN was issued the car park at Kings Heath Retail Park, Findlay Road, Birmingham, B14 7SN was owned or managed bycreativecarpark.co.uk. As you can see from the below email trail, X, a member of staff at Topps Tiles in Kings Heath, contactedcreativecarpark.co.uk and was informed that the PCN had been cancelled. I would appreciate your help in sorting out this matter for me. I understand that the ownership or management of the car park has since changed hands.
Regards,
Me
c.c Topps Tiles
From: Topps Kings Heath
Subject: RE: Parking Charge Notice: For attention of X
Date: 6 February 2019 12:36:24 GMT
To: Me
Hi "Me"
I have submitted the cancellation.
Please see the attached screen shot for peace of mind.
Kind regards
X
Screenshot:
clients.creativ
ecarpark.co.uk
says
We will no longer contact the driver
about this PCN.
Please contact the driver and let
them know the ticket has been
cancelled
From: Me
Sent: 06 February 2019 11:49
To: Topps Kings Heath
Subject: Parking Charge Notice: For attention of X
Hi X,
My wife Y was in earlier today about the Parking Fine we have received following her visit to Topps Tiles on 28/01/2019. I understand you are going to sort this out for us.
PCN Number
Thanks very much for your help.
Best wishes
Me0 -
Half_way. I'm fairly sure that the car park is for a multiple retail outlet0
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