Civil Service - changing department permanently not "on loan"

gettingready · 12 April 2019 at 11:26AM

hyubh wrote: »

You sound really angry for someone who's just got a new job on materially higher pay with no loss of pension rights or continuous service. Perhaps the civil service isn't for you? As a free person, you're obviously free to apply for a job with an employer that isn't the civil service.

I got a new job with better pay and conditions based on my previous experience/qualifications/ accreditations and had to go through the process same way as anyone else would have so nobody handed me anything for free.

I am not angry, I am baffled how in 2019 people are being treated as objects that are owned by someone else.

Personally I do not particularly care about "continuity of service" or "employer pension".

But I fo care about being free to make my own choices and will of course continue making my own choices.

Unfortunately so many people are unable to do so.

TELLIT01 · 12 April 2019 at 12:26PM

hyubh wrote: »

You sound really angry for someone who's just got a new job on materially higher pay with no loss of pension rights or continuous service. Perhaps the civil service isn't for you? As a free person, you're obviously free to apply for a job with an employer that isn't the civil service.

I don't blame the OP being angry if they had expected a permanent transfer to a new department and then discovered, after the event, that it's a temporary secondment. What happens at the end of that period - do they return to the previous role on the previous pay? do they return on the current pay? do they actually stay where they are but are permanently looking over their shoulder for the day they are hauled back to the old department?

gettingready · 12 April 2019 at 12:34PM

Small correction - I did not expect a permanent "transfer".
New job, independent from previous department was the plan.
That is why I spent time and effort to apply etc.
Everything else spot on.
Loan T&C are simply stupid (can be called back with 1 month notice for ANY reason is just one example)
So .. moving forward - before applying for any new job, need to make sure it is a perm job even for existing CS. Otherwise no point wasting time/effort.
Hope to move again within the next 3 months.. yes of course a higher band again - that is the whole point of moving jobs.
I am still way below my 2010 salary as changed the sector but getting there ...

TELLIT01 · 12 April 2019 at 2:53PM

So to clarify, you applied for the job via an external advert, not through an Civil Service mechanism? We had one guy where I worked who was told he had to resign his current job when he was offered another in a different area of the CS. That being the case there certainly doesn't seem to be any consistency in the way things are done.

lincroft1710 · 12 April 2019 at 3:53PM

I cannot remember exactly but many years ago, there was something about one CS department "poaching" staff from another CS department not either being allowed or being "the done thing". Thus I think the receiving department had to ask permission or approval from the exporting department for a member of the RD to move to the ED.

Even though you made an external application, I believe the departments involved will still administer the move as if it was an internal application as you are an existing civil servant.

Although you dismiss my suggestion, I believe the only way you will get anything changed is by union intervention. In my experience any progress made in achieving better conditions for civil servants has most often been by the various CS unions working together or individually.

TELLIT01 · 12 April 2019 at 4:13PM

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Even though you made an external application, I believe the departments involved will still administer the move as if it was an internal application as you are an existing civil servant.

I think you are correct about the way it will be handled. The OP is remaining in the Civil Service so if it's in the same 'wing' of the CS it will be treated by HR as internal irrespective of how the OP applied.
The other problem for the OP in that situation is that if his current department don't want to lose the head count they can hang on until they have a replacement. By that time the 'receiving' department may get fed up of waiting and get somebody else.

gettingready · 13 April 2019 at 1:48AM

So to clarify, you applied for the job via an external advert, not through an Civil Service mechanism?

All CS jobs are advertised either as internal (only open to CS) or external (open to all). My one was external

's in the same 'wing' of the CS it will be treated by HR as internal irrespective of how the OP applied.

Nope, completely different, separate department not connected in any way

**********

Again - I have already moved t the new job a while ago.

But I know a lot of people who are stuck and unable to move because their "home" department "refuses to let them go".

And this is what I have a problem with - generally.

As in any other situation, outside of CS - one gets a new job leaves the old one and nobody in the old job can "block" them.

Imagine you invest time and effort into application, get selected for an interview, get a job offer and then your original department, the one you want to leave tells you that you can not go. Seriously, !!!!!!?

CS treats all as "transfers" when this is NOT the case if one apples for a job, gets interview and job offer. This is NOT a transfer, this is a new job.

For comparison - NHS is a massive employer too but does not deal with staff in such a nonsense way. Normal is - one finds a new job, gives a notice (not ask for permission) to leave old job, starts the new one. End of story.

miriamac · 13 April 2019 at 2:03AM

If you want to move from one civil service job to another, keeping your seniority etc, you are supposed to have agreed it with your line manager first.

If you apply through the external competition , and are happy to start from scratch in the new department - resigning from your current job, doing the full probation period in the new job, with the risk that you might not pass it etc - you can move on easily.

sew109 · 13 April 2019 at 8:08AM

Your actual employer has not changed they are paying you for a job and you have agreed to their terms. If you considered this to be unfair or if you consider this employer to treat you badly then maybe the better option is to find an employer that you don’t think treats you like this or better still work for yourself.

The fact that this was advertised externally is irrelevant the company is perfectly within its rights to treat internal applicants differently.As you are still employed by the same employer you have protection that you would not have as an external hire and also possibly benefits that may not be given to you until then end of your promotion period.

Again you have said several times that you don’t like the way you are treated and listed other employers that treat people differently with this in mind I cannot see why you are still working for an employer you feel is so wrong so probably best you leave and get employment with a company that would treat you fairer.

Using the term slave in this instance is offensive and ignorant.

gettingready · 13 April 2019 at 8:40AM

I give up trying to explain why that "system" is simply wrong as clearly most people posting here are unable to understand what is wrong with that.

Amazing.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Civil Service - changing department permanently not "on loan"

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