Civil Service - changing department permanently not "on loan"

gettingready

Question to Civil Servants Only

I am a Civil Servant and applied for a externally advertised job with a different department, higher grade, got the job but then the paperwork was processed as "loan" so my "home department" stayed the same.

I am looking to change a job again and wonder how on earth can I break all ties with my "home department" for good when most jobs advertised externally are described as permanent for external applicants but loans for current civil servants?

It really feels like the "home department" holds people down from moving on with their lives.

I want no connection with them (very bad experience), have absolutely no plans to ever go back there but any job offers are done as loan again and again due to me currently being a civil servant. I do not want another loan, I want to change "home" department all together but it seems impossible.

Anyone with Civil Service HR background can advice? Our HR is pretty much non existent.

antonic

I am a fellow Civil Servant (not in HR) and normal policy is that if you go on secondment you have to return to your home department at the end of the secondment, which make sense.
What does your paperwork say about the secondment ? (and I agree with your comment about HR, mine is useless as well).
Also having done one secondment, you may find yourself barred from future ones.

TELLIT01

The OP is saying that they didn't apply as a secondment, but as a new job which would be a permanent move. The OP needs to take this up with management and HR to get it sorted before taking on the new role.

gettingready

Exactly - I never applied for any secondments. I applied for job that was advertised externally as permanent but I did not realise they will process it as a "Loan" when I got the job. There was no other way as I was an existing servant so only the "loan" was acceptable. Would have been permanent for someone who was not already CS applied and got it. Total nonsense.

I am already in a new role for a while now but planning my next move - somewhere else.

I do not want to ever go back to my original department. Feels like being a slave and having an owner who decides what I can/can not do in terms of future choice of employment. And can actually bloc people moving on (I have seen this happen when people were offered new jobs with different departments but their "home" department blocked them refusing to "release" them.

In normal life, one finds a new job, gives notice in the old one and moves on.

In CS there is some assumption ones "belongs" for life to the original department they started with and that department pretty much holds them hostage - this surely must be against some employment laws?

lincroft1710

There is no contravention of employment law!

You were originally offered a position in the Department of Youreoursnow which you accepted. You decided you would like a higher grade position in another department, and DOY agreed to release you on secondment.

As you have stated they have the power to refuse secondments. That is how the CS works. It costs money to fill a vacancy, so if they allow a secondment, it costs that department money. They don't have to offer you promotion or make it easy for you to move on from the original appointment.

HR are not your friend, they are not there to help you. The people who would fight your corner (if it can be fought) are your union. If you are not a member of any of the CS unions, I would suggest you join an appropriate one now.

gettingready

You decided you would like a higher grade position in another department, and DOY agreed to release you on secondment. Again - I never went for/applied for any secondment.

Nope.

I applied for a job in another department that was advertised externally, same way as anyone else did, I got an interview and later the job offer.

Nobody offered me any promotion, I got a higher level job based on my pre CS skill set/experience etc.

In any normal circumstances - I leave job A and start job B. End of story. My life, my choices. I am a free person, I do not belong to anyone to make those decisions for me.

So I am really surprised that CS is getting away with treating people this way, making them stay in jobs they hate and not "allowing" what they call transfers/secondments etc when those are NOT.

But I have found out today that if someone works in CS already and applies for/gets an offer from another department on the same pay level - their "home" department can block the move.

BUT if the new job offer is on a higher level - they can not. So to keep hold f people, they turn those into "loans".

Now , if I wanted to stay in my "home" department - I would not be looking for another job. And when I got one - why on earth would I ever want to go back?

Again - the process is wrong, no employer should be allowed to block people from moving on. That should be illegal.

Again - anywhere else one leaves job A starts job B and this is the end of the story.

In CS this is so completely messed up.

Several of my ex colleagues desperately try to get out but as they are unable to get higher level jobs they are stuck as despite job offers from different department - "home department"" refuses to "release" them as jobs are on the same level.

That is wrong - it s a master and slave scenario.

sportsarb

lincroft1710 wrote: »

HR are not your friend, they are not there to help you.

That's an alarming thought.

My Civil Service HR have been very helpful and accomodating for me.

gettingready

HR are not your friend, they are not there to help you. The people who would fight your corner (if it can be fought) are your union.

I fight my own corners ...

hyubh

gettingready wrote: »

In any normal circumstances - I leave job A and start job B. End of story. My life, my choices. I am a free person, I do not belong to anyone to make those decisions for me.

So I am really surprised that CS is getting away with treating people this way, making them stay in jobs they hate and not "allowing" what they call transfers/secondments etc when those are NOT.

But I have found out today that if someone works in CS already and applies for/gets an offer from another department on the same pay level - their "home" department can block the move.

BUT if the new job offer is on a higher level - they can not. So to keep hold f people, they turn those into "loans".

Now , if I wanted to stay in my "home" department - I would not be looking for another job. And when I got one - why on earth would I ever want to go back?

Again - the process is wrong, no employer should be allowed to block people from moving on. That should be illegal.

Again - anywhere else one leaves job A starts job B and this is the end of the story.

In CS this is so completely messed up.

Several of my ex colleagues desperately try to get out but as they are unable to get higher level jobs they are stuck as despite job offers from different department - "home department"" refuses to "release" them as jobs are on the same level.

That is wrong - it s a master and slave scenario.

You sound really angry for someone who's just got a new job on materially higher pay with no loss of pension rights or continuous service. Perhaps the civil service isn't for you? As a free person, you're obviously free to apply for a job with an employer that isn't the civil service.

MysteryMe

Was resigning from your old department not an option?

Unless the rules have changed since I was a CS, previous service counted for pension/leave entitlement if employed in the CS again.

Floop

I’ve recently changed departments on promotion and permanently, there was no question of a loan. My new job was also advertised externally and on a permanent basis.

Was your new job advertised as fixed term? If so, that’s why it would be a loan, as you would become surplus in the new department so they avoid this by only accepting on loan terms.