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Is this an HMO?

bobwilson
bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
edited 10 August 2018 at 5:04PM in House buying, renting & selling
NB: subject line should read "large HMO". Is this a large (licensable) HMO? Trying to establish whether an independent annexe with its own kitchen & bathroom forms part of a large (licensable) HMO under the new oct 2018 rules or not. I'm asking regarding the government rules, not the council rules.

A 2 story house with unconverted loft, has 4 unrelated tenants. Would a 5th tenant in an independent annexe within the grounds that has its own kitchenette & bathroom, (the tenant walks through the garden gate to reach it, not through the house), form a large HMO or not?

Does anyone know for certain whether it is or isn't a large licensable HMO? (and can you point me to a gov link to back it up?)

Thanks :beer:
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Comments

  • Comms69
    Comms69 Posts: 14,229 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    1: Check your local council - many have different, more extreme rules.
    2: Who are the 4 tenants, and do they all rent a room, or jointly rent the property?
    3: If the rent the whole property, are you sure they aren't already entitled to use the annexe?
  • sal_III
    sal_III Posts: 1,953 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    If you want "ironclad" info on the matter - speak with your local council, as they are the enforcers.
  • bobwilson
    bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
    edited 10 August 2018 at 12:13PM
    To clarify, our council goes by the government's minimum rules. They don't have more extreme measures. I'm trying to ascertain whether an annexe falls within HMO if it doesn't have shared kitchen or bathroom.

    The tenants are unrelated.

    They don't rent the whole property, they rent a room each.

    Since we're considering renting out an annexe, they obviously aren't "entitled" to use it, otherwise we wouldn't be asking.
  • bobwilson
    bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
    edited 10 August 2018 at 12:16PM
    sal_III wrote: »
    If you want "ironclad" info on the matter - speak with your local council, as they are the enforcers.

    Have you ever tried speaking with your local council to gather reliable information? If so, I suspect you wouldn't wonder why we're posting here instead !

    The council has to go by min standards the gov set. I'm aware councils can add extra conditions, but I'm not asking about our council. I'll re-word the question; under the gov rules, does an independent annexe form part of a large HMO?
  • Comms69
    Comms69 Posts: 14,229 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    bobwilson wrote: »
    To clarify, our council goes by the government's minimum rules. They don't have more extreme measures. I'm trying to ascertain whether an annexe falls within HMO if it doesn't have shared kitchen or bathroom.

    The tenants are unrelated.

    They don't rent the whole property, they rent a room each.

    Since we're considering renting out an annexe, they obviously aren't "entitled" to use it, otherwise we wouldn't be asking. In fact the annexe isn't built yet. We won't build it if it's going to make us fall within a licensable HMO.
    So it's already a HMO....


    Oh I see, it's one of those hypothetical things.
  • sal_III
    sal_III Posts: 1,953 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    Annexe or not, if you already have 4 unrelated tenants, sharing kitchen and bathroom(s), your property is an HMO. Plan and clear on the gov website.

    If you have obscure circumstances - ask your council in writing whether you need a license or not. Then if one day, they come knocking on your door, you will have their response in your defence.
  • sal_III
    sal_III Posts: 1,953 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    bobwilson wrote: »
    Have you ever tried speaking with your local council to gather reliable information? If so, I suspect you wouldn't wonder why we're posting here instead !

    The council has to go by min standards the gov set. I'm aware councils can add extra conditions, but I'm not asking about our council. I'll re-word the question; under the gov rules, does an independent annexe form part of a large HMO?
    So, rather than relying on what's on the gov website and/or on your council website. You will rely on an internet forum post(s) to base your legal position on?

    That's why I said - the only way to be 100% sure where you stand is to get it from the horse's mouth - in this case the local council. As they are the ones in charge of enforcement. Anything else is conjecture.

    And if you are so unable to get information from your council, how are you so sure, that they are doing the bare minimum in regards to HMO licensing enforcement?
  • bobwilson
    bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
    Comms69 wrote: »
    So it's already a HMO....

    Question was whether it's a large licensable HMO, re-read the op before you post.
  • bobwilson
    bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
    sal_III wrote: »
    So, rather than relying on what's on the gov website and/or on your council website. You will rely on an internet forum post(s) to base your legal position on?

    I'd rather rely on gov website, hence why I'm asking for a link to back up anyone's position.
    sal_III wrote: »
    the only way to be 100% sure where you stand is to get it from the horse's mouth - in this case the local council. As they are the ones in charge of enforcement. Anything else is conjecture.
    If you think the council offer 100% certainty then you've obviously never spoken to people who work at a council. Thanks for telling me not to ask the question on this forum though, I'll ask where ever I like though. Thanks
    sal_III wrote: »
    And if you are so unable to get information from your council, how are you so sure, that they are doing the bare minimum in regards to HMO licensing enforcement?
    That wasn't the question. If you can't answer the question, why are you posting? Go away.
  • bobwilson
    bobwilson Posts: 595 Forumite
    sal_III wrote: »
    Annexe or not, if you already have 4 unrelated tenants, sharing kitchen and bathroom(s), your property is an HMO. Plan and clear on the gov website.

    The op was whether it's a large (licensable) HMO, not whether it's an HMO. Read the op before you post.
    sal_III wrote: »
    If you have obscure circumstances - ask your council in writing whether you need a license or not. Then if one day, they come knocking on your door, you will have their response in your defence.

    If you've ever dealt with the council, you'd realise telling them "so and so in your council told me x, so you can't now tell me y", has no effect upon their reasoning. If you are incapable of answering the op, please don't post. Thanks
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